Y'all are a bunch of wankers!

Human Shields

Israeli army using Palestinian children as human shields:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,2030222,00.html

Discuss

Without anti-semitic comments please.
Permalink  
March 10th, 2007 6:27pm
very problematic
Permalink politico 
March 10th, 2007 6:30pm
Doesn't really surprise me, people are really, really, really, really stupid.  It is amazing will still remember how to walk properly.
Permalink Bot Berlin 
March 10th, 2007 6:48pm
thats good news.  now, if we can just get the palestinians to use israeli children....with both the palestinians and the israelis using human shields that the other gives a damn about, the shooting may actually stop.

go Israel!
Permalink Send private email zestyZucchini 
March 10th, 2007 6:54pm
Does anyone even remember what they are fighting about.  Land?  Why couldn't the palestinians just say "fuck it" and try to work with what they have.
Permalink Bot Berlin 
March 10th, 2007 6:57pm
yeah, good idea.  hey! heres an even better one.  Ill get someone you dont give a shit about to give me permission to move into your house, Ill shift you and your children into the laundry and you can live there while I live in the house proper.

you just let me know when you are ready to get the fuck over the living conditions, ok?
Permalink Send private email zestyZucchini 
March 10th, 2007 7:24pm
>Does anyone even remember what they are fighting about.

Yes, the creation of the state is still in living memory. There are Palestinians who remember having their land taken away from them not once, not twice, but THREE times but settling European Jews.
Permalink Colm 
March 10th, 2007 7:57pm
Find me a palestinian who has had his land taken away three times and supports continual war with israel.  Killing and dying for country is a young mans game.
Permalink  
March 10th, 2007 8:01pm
People don't tend to forgive and/or forget the things Colm just mentioned and also the OP. :/
Permalink what are you reading for? 
March 10th, 2007 8:02pm
...I would be pissed if I were them...

actually, if I were them, the Israelis would have a hell of a lot more to worry about.  it has always amazed me how easy going the vast majority of the palestinians are.

kick _me_ out of _my_ house 3 times?  the 3rd time you had better have a damn good excuse, or bring a gun.

luckily the Israelis have lots of guns :)
Permalink Send private email zestyZucchini 
March 10th, 2007 8:03pm
>Find me a palestinian who has had his land taken away
>three times and supports continual war with israel.

???

>Killing and dying for country is a young mans game.

Sure, and there are plenty of young men with good reason to want to fight on both sides. It's a shame that it's always the wrong people who get killed.
Permalink Colm 
March 10th, 2007 8:08pm
You are saying there are people who lost land three times. Just point one of them out.  And find out if they support war with Israel.
Permalink  
March 10th, 2007 8:11pm
What's your point?
Permalink Colm 
March 10th, 2007 8:11pm
You're just making shit up.  There are palestinians who have lost nine arms to the struggle with Israel!  Oh, show me one.
Permalink  
March 10th, 2007 8:12pm
<shrug> lets assume you are right. 

how many of your houses would you be willing to let me move into on someone elses say so and without compensation?


how often would it have to happen before you got really, really angry at me?
Permalink Send private email zestyZucchini 
March 10th, 2007 8:13pm
oh come on... the israeli's are bastards and it's long since past the time that it was advantageous for them to make peace with the palestians.  I'm not sure if it is absence of a reliable negotiating partner on the palestinian side or a militant domestic faction that prevents the state from acting in its own best interest.

my point isn't about Israel.  It's about Colm. He doesn't marshall facts that support conclusions.  He just makes things up.
Permalink  
March 10th, 2007 8:17pm
We had nothing to do with this.
Permalink Shields and Yarnell 
March 10th, 2007 8:19pm
"He doesn't marshall facts that support conclusions.  He just makes things up."

<shrug> the effort of actually looking up everything we vaguely remember from past ..uhh.. research efforts is  WAY more than mere participation in an internet forum requires or can reasonably expect.

stuff that is said, we all have to run past our own filters.

his assertion about some palestinians having lost their land 3 times seems reasonable to me, certainly there have been several expansion efforts by Israel, certainly it is not unreasonable to think that maybe some of them affected some palestinians more than once.

Im perfectly happy to accept that it has truth in potentia.

those posters who do in fact carefully research every point they make are both far rarer, and far more valued for the very reason that doing so for the sake of a single thread that will roll out of sight within a day or two is effort WAY beyond the small value offered for most of us.

unless you seriously want to suggest that you carefully research and fact check every post you make*, I suggest that you do as we all do and stop sodding whinging about it you big, yellow bellied frog.


* lying bastard
Permalink Send private email zestyZucchini 
March 10th, 2007 8:29pm
> <shrug>

Could you please close your tags? My parser ran out of memory and I have know idea how to interpret your post.
Permalink Shields and Yarnell 
March 10th, 2007 8:33pm
<shrug>

it's possible that some palestians have been moved three times, they might even still be pissed off about it.  Is that what's keeping this war going?  I don't think so. 

It's a rhetorical device. "not once, not twice, but THREE TIMES."  It good for stiring up the emotional edge to win an argument, it tells us little about why this conflict persists.
Permalink  
March 10th, 2007 9:01pm
It always helps when making ad hominem arguments if you're anonymous. It really gives credence to your view that you are willing to stand behind your words with a hidden identity.

With respect to the little factoid - I remembered it from an interview the BBC did in the West Bank with an elderly Palestinian. Given the fact that the Israelis have made several pushes into land from the beginning of their takeover of historic Palestine, I see good reason to believe that it was true.

However, please continue the ad hominem attacks - I need to know that telling the truth gets on somebody's nerves - there would be little point otherwise :)
Permalink Colm 
March 10th, 2007 9:52pm
>it tells us little about why this conflict persists.

I would've thought it told us quite a bit about why "this conflict exists". If somebody steals your land then you get pissed off, no?

Did you have a brain hemmorage or something?
Permalink Colm 
March 10th, 2007 9:53pm
They aren't ad hominem arguments.  They might be wrong arguments as zestyZesty summed up pretty well, but just because I'm taking direct issue with your postings that doesn't make the ad hominem. 

They are squarely directed the content of your posting.  You claim that the war is caused by people who have moved three times.  I claim that you made that up as a rhetorical device and the actual reasons the war is ongoing are more complex than a group of pissed off old men who have had to move often.

> Did you have a brain hemmorage or something?

That's an ad hominem.

Exactly what part of my postings do you consider ad hominem?
Permalink  
March 10th, 2007 10:08pm
"He doesn't marshall facts that support conclusions.  He just makes things up."
Permalink Colm 
March 10th, 2007 10:16pm
Please continue though. How will I know if I'm right if I'm not violently disagreed with some of the time?
Permalink Colm 
March 10th, 2007 10:17pm
That's the conclusion draw from the evidence that you just made up this group of angry warrior palestinians who had been bum rushed from their homes.

Ad hominem is "did you just have a brain hemmorage"

That was just a conclusion supported by the evidence.  You had made things up.  You hadn't supported any conclusion.

If I say a man is lying and demonstrate that he is lying it's not an ad hominem fallacy. 

Ad hominem is not your universal defense against the people of cot pointing out that you are a liar who prefers neat sounding fiction to verfiable fact.
Permalink  
March 10th, 2007 10:36pm
>If I say a man is lying and demonstrate that he is lying
>it's not an ad hominem fallacy.

Absolutely true, but you've demonstrated jack shit.

Who the fuck are you anyway? You've been stalking me for months now.
Permalink Colm 
March 10th, 2007 10:41pm
I sense that you're a Republican, or at least pretty conservative, since the last time I got savaged for not providing references, links and sourced quotes in my posts it was for revealing facts which, although true, didn't gel with the conservative mindset.
Permalink Colm 
March 10th, 2007 10:43pm
When was that?  Was that the time you let us know you had visited a quarter of the globe?
Permalink  
March 10th, 2007 10:56pm
Not particularly difficult. I have friends who have travelled far more extensively than that.

I meant the last forum where this happened, which was popualated almost exclusively by Republicans. You have the same kind of blindsided 'I don't want to believe anything that doesn't fit with my way of looking at things' way.
Permalink Colm 
March 10th, 2007 11:08pm
What countries have you been to?
Permalink  
March 10th, 2007 11:10pm
Pure propaganda. How hard would it have been to report on both sides of the story?
Permalink Practical Economist 
March 11th, 2007 7:26am
There is no other side. Soldiers, even when being shot at, aren't supposed to hide behind civilians, even when fighting terrorists. Even the Israeli Supreme Court agrees.

I've personally seen Israeli snipers using Palestinian civilians as human shields, and taking shots over the Palestinian's shoulder.

It's exactly the same scumbag tactic that Saddam Hussein's former army, and other 2 bit third world dictatorships engage in.  And the Israeli army is supposed to be better than that.
Permalink  
March 11th, 2007 7:52am
The OP is categorically vile. That is, the content, ie, children used as human shields (though the only source for that is a child himself).

The whole moved three times business is a red herring though. Ask any of those old Palestinians what would have happened had the three wars initiated on their behalf been lost by Israel. Would Palestinians be withdrawing to the 1967 border as they ask Israel to do today? No frigging way. No way -- any one alive then would know that today.

If one sets the rules of the game as "let's fight a war for this land," one can't go back generations later and cry 'foul play' when one lost. The older generation accepts this. It's the younger generation that feels they got a raw deal - they want their grandparents land despite the fact that their parents lost.
Permalink Send private email strawberry snowflake 
March 11th, 2007 11:10am
>Would Palestinians be withdrawing to the 1967 border as
>they ask Israel to do today? No frigging way. No way --
>any one alive then would know that today.

Nope. Most of those Jews would now be living in Europe or the US and there would probably be peace in Palestine.
Permalink Colm 
March 11th, 2007 3:52pm

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