RIP Philo

JoS creates an ?off

http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?joel.3.468839.23

ok, so its not _actually_ off.  but spot the flaming.  its beautiful.  I see joel as a kind of giant grab back of easily offended morons.  its like a popular blah.

::sigh::
Permalink Send private email zestyZucchini 
March 22nd, 2007 1:06pm
Wow, the anointed mods of ?jos calling the users pricks, and no deletions? 

That's a fascinating thread, even though your headline is horribly misleading and you should be spanked for it.
Permalink Send private email muppet 
March 22nd, 2007 1:31pm
"Look, as a favor to those of us who don't consider you to be god's gift to humor, please try to confine your shit-posting to here. That way we don't have to dig through it in places where there is actual content."


LOL. see, this is flaming as it should be.  damn, maybe I should return to daddys place...
Permalink Send private email zestyZucchini 
March 22nd, 2007 2:07pm
I saw that earlier. It's a stupid thread. CoT is more tasteful. At least here there is humor.
Permalink Practical Economist 
March 22nd, 2007 2:08pm
"LOL. see, this is flaming as it should be.  damn, maybe I should return to daddys place..."

That thread is an island in a sea of mediocrity.  I can't stomach digging through the chaff there anymore.
Permalink Send private email muppet 
March 22nd, 2007 2:13pm
true, but its mere existance is kind of exciting*

JoS desperately needs a safety valve.  he is going to have to either accept the degredation of his forum, give the mods a kick up the ass or...create a new ?off

he he he.


* ok, ok..maybe exciting is the wrong word..
Permalink Send private email zestyZucchini 
March 22nd, 2007 2:16pm
jonesy just won't give up.

http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?joel.3.469088.3

the scale shouldn't recalibrate when rebooted rant....

Umm. ok, stevey.
Permalink  
March 22nd, 2007 2:20pm
heh.  I think he makes a good point.
Permalink Send private email zestyZucchini 
March 22nd, 2007 2:24pm
I thought everybody on the planet knew that an electronic scale zeroes on boot-up.

That's like getting pissed because your car starts when you turn the key instead of waiting for you to shout "Start!  Start!" while pounding on the horn.
Permalink Send private email muppet 
March 22nd, 2007 2:30pm
your car starts when you turn the key?  flash bastard.
Permalink Send private email zestyZucchini 
March 22nd, 2007 3:03pm
LoL
Permalink trollop 
March 22nd, 2007 4:45pm
The point about the scale is not that it zeros on bootup, but  that it takes the weight it has on it as zero.

This is another example of electronic versions being worse than manual ones. If a manual scale calibrates to zero when it has a weight on it, it will show a minus reading for when that weight is taken off and you know there's a problem.
Permalink Send private email Stephen Jones 
March 22nd, 2007 5:50pm
But what if you have a pan, that you're going to put on the scale, to keep the scale clean or whatever.

Wouldn't you want to be able to zero the scale with the pan on it, so everybody's not paying for the weight of the pan?
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
March 22nd, 2007 5:57pm
Correct, but when the pan is taken  off the scale would show a minus measurement not the same weight as when the pan is  on.
Permalink Send private email Stephen Jones 
March 22nd, 2007 6:04pm
Proper use of a scale:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/worldscutestbaby/430752107/
Permalink Send private email Ward 
March 22nd, 2007 6:10pm
Alas Ward, the Saudi censor proxy blocks it. Does it provide crucial enough information for me to fire up Tor and crash the firewall just to look at it?
Permalink Send private email Stephen Jones 
March 22nd, 2007 6:30pm
It's a picture of 7.22lb baby lying on her back on a commercial scale.  A scale that tares itself when you turn it off and on...
Permalink Send private email Ward 
March 22nd, 2007 6:53pm
But does the scale show the baby as weighing zero kilograms, like the one in my grocery store?
Permalink Send private email Stephen Jones 
March 22nd, 2007 7:39pm
No, because I'm a trained retail grocery worker (how do you think I got the scale?) so I know how to properly zero the thing.
Permalink Send private email Ward 
March 22nd, 2007 8:07pm
And my whole point is that you shouldn't need to be trained to operate basic equipment.

When things were mechanical there was no need of special training. As they become digital we have deterioration.

Let me give you another example; my washing machine. LG, which is a company I normally admire, has a 'fuzzy logic' computer system inside its consumer washing machines as standard. One of the things it will do is that if it discovers an unbalanced load it will put water in and  let the water out of the machine until the load is balanced. The result is that when the chip iws defective the water simply goes in and out the machine, costing a small fortune if you are using metered pipe water, and creating illwill with the neighbours as you lower the water table if you have a well. If you set it to hot it will keep the water running until you have the required temperature. If you have just emptied the hot water boiler so the water is cold it will keep sending the 'hot water' down the drain for hours, as it never gets time to heat up.

Now for twenty five years before your washing machines didn't have logic, fuzzy or otherwise, and they washed clothes which is what you expected them to do.
Permalink Send private email Stephen Jones 
March 22nd, 2007 8:35pm
Well, that's the price of progress.  If you want lit-up digital displays of your produce's weight, you have to learn a new trick.  As I said over on JoS, strain gauges drift over time so they _have_ to be zero'd.  It's not a mechanical device, so the zeroing has to be electronic.  There's no electrical equivalent of the way a spring scale behaves, you can't simply display a negative weight, so if you want an electronic scale, you can't get away from the need to zero it.

The bad decsion is on the part of the store management who put a device that absolutely needs user input to function properly out where untrained users have access to it.
Permalink Send private email Ward 
March 22nd, 2007 8:46pm
Yea but who told the store manager the scale needed trained help? Nobody I am sure; in fact I am sure they sold it as something any idiot could use, which was why after purchase they colored the key for bananas yellow, the one for oranges and carrots orange, the one for strawberries red, and the one for peppers green.

As for it being progress that I have to send my washing machine to the scap merchants after 13 months, instead of having it last fifteen years like the last one, I remember one of my college tutors claim that progress was gress in the wrong direction.
Permalink Send private email Stephen Jones 
March 22nd, 2007 9:12pm
>>> Yea but who told the store manager the scale needed trained help? Nobody I am sure

You've obviously never bought a modern cash register...

All the sophisticated equipment in stores pretty much requires training.  For a simple scale like the one we bought  it's pretty much just, "you have to zero it every time, you do that by turning it off, making sure there's nothing on it, and turning it back on."  Then we had to train every employee the same way.  But that's for a scale that was only used a few times a day.

And when it comes to a "simple" cash register, w/ 5000 PLUs and a (I'm sure) deliberately arcane programming system...
Permalink Send private email Ward 
March 22nd, 2007 10:09pm
-----":All the sophisticated equipment in stores pretty much requires training.  For a simple scale like the one we bought  it's pretty much just, "you have to zero it every time, you do that by turning it off, making sure there's nothing on it, and turning it back on."  Then we had to train every employee the same way.  But that's for a scale that was only used a few times a day."------

But the point I am trying to make is that it is a design fault that you do need training. Training is the cop-out of the lazy designer. If the scale simply showed a minus weight, as is perfectly feasible in software, when it wasn't properly calibrated with nothing on it, then there would be instant feedback.