RIP Philo

Tang = idiot. Denis = egomanic. Reddy = reformed troll

For that matter I *don't* generally buy tech books, as they're usually for the crowd that's always three steps behind.

http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?joel.3.471664.55
Permalink  
March 28th, 2007 9:59am
Her blog is excellent. DF is just miasmic.
Permalink son of parnas 
March 28th, 2007 10:04am
Gee, how *enormously* surprising that one of my cowardly fans felt the pressing need to pull this over here.
Permalink DF 
March 28th, 2007 10:09am
This is off topic after all.
Permalink son of parnas 
March 28th, 2007 10:11am
Well, the comment about the books is pretty much truthful by the constraints of reality.

The people writing the books have to learn the tech before they can write anything sensible about it...

It seems like blogs have become the pop music pied pipers of tech anymore.

Even if you're reading a good blog, you're still a reader.
Permalink JoC 
March 28th, 2007 10:12am
> you're still a reader.

And who would want to read? Who would want to teach? We must be polymorphously perverse, throwing ourselves into the undulating mosh pit of life.
Permalink son of parnas 
March 28th, 2007 10:15am
>Her blog is excellent. DF is just miasmic.

Are these two sentences related somehow? The quality of her blog has nothing to do with the conversation.

I'm definitely a legomaniac, though.
Permalink DF 
March 28th, 2007 10:21am
> Are these two sentences related somehow?

Irony that you demand relevance and internal coherence.
Permalink son of parnas 
March 28th, 2007 10:22am
>Irony that you demand relevance and internal coherence.

No, that isn't irony. And querying the intention of your statement is just a -tad- different from a demand, no?
Permalink DF 
March 28th, 2007 10:25am
Ok, I'll give it to you... just because you said polymorphously perverse.

I started to tack something snarky on the end like 'stupid readers'.

I guess my point is just that I believe you will get more out of doing then out of reading about what some blogger is doing even if they are doing what you ought to be doing.

And so much of it is just opinions, the value of such is almost nil because the opinions were formed, and are generally only applicable to a small subset of situations/problems with the given subject matter.

As people are into tech, they will consume tech like teenage girls consume Britney (when she wasn't bald, I dunno how she'll fare amongst them now). That's not an entirely bad thing, but to think that it ties in very much with actually being productive and doing anything meaningful is a farce.
Permalink JoC 
March 28th, 2007 10:26am
> I guess my point is just that I believe you will get
> more out of doing then out of reading about what
> some blogger is doing even if they are doing what
> you ought to be doing.

I remember watching an apple fall from a tree when I was younger. Somehow the universal laws of motion did not occur to me. So I think I'll keep learning from others and from experience.
Permalink son of parnas 
March 28th, 2007 10:33am
"Somehow the universal laws of motion did not occur to me."

Hehe. Then you must be simple minded!
Permalink JoC 
March 28th, 2007 10:43am
> Then you must be simple minded!

Terribly. So I most squat on the shoulders of giants.
Permalink son of parnas 
March 28th, 2007 10:46am
>So I most squat on the shoulders of giants.

I don't mean to be hard on the tech books industry, but given the thread I must: If you feel that you must learn from the instructional tech book section of your local Borders bookstore, then you're squatting on the shoulders of midgets, not giants. The overwhelming majority of tech books are, to put it mildly, FUCKING TERRIBLE. These aren't generally written by the great minds of software development, but instead are just one more step between you and the subject.

I pretty much wholeheartedly agree with everything JoC said above, and it's a pretty brilliant analysis of the tech market.
Permalink DF 
March 28th, 2007 10:52am
In all fairness, Newton's laws didn't spontaneously coalesce in the observation of a single event.

If anything, the example is more an argument to my point, as I'm fairly certain he wasn't reading about falling apples in the physics section of the Baroque Bi-Weekly.

He was dropping his own apples.
Permalink JoC 
March 28th, 2007 10:53am
> I don't mean to be hard on the tech books industry, but given the thread I must

Some how you always find the justification you need to be mean. Do you even need a pretense anymore?

> FUCKING TERRIBLE

I find many that are quite good. Not everyone is like you and has recreated every discipline from scratch in their short lives.


> He was dropping his own apples.

And I took advantage of his droppings. I could drop an apple until the end of time and only get apple sauce. That was really the point. In certain areas I do the same for others and we cascade our knowledge upwards.
Permalink son of parnas 
March 28th, 2007 10:58am
If B follows from A...  In the original thread, itself offtopic, it was questioned how I didn't know who the Great Kathy Sierra was -- surely everyone browses the beginner Java books, right? Surely everyone salivates over whatever revelation she brought forth this week?

To which I gave my position on tech books, which eventually brought us here. It really is a fairly logical progression, yet it always gives people like yourself, always desperate to attack (now there's an irony -- SoP accusing others of attacking, when probably 90%+ of your posts are attacks, usually with you trying to play the defender of the good), the opportunity to claim that I'm being negative.

Nah. I'm just willing to give my opinion. Feel free to disagree and discard.

>I find many that are quite good. Not everyone is like you and has recreated every discipline from scratch in their short lives.

As you generally do, you take a position and exaggerate it to extremes. In the original thread I stated that we have the Interweb now, and so many sources of information (including by actually "do-ers" who otherwise wouldn't have the time or inclination to write a tech book, the likes of which generally see absurdly low sales) the importance of the tech book section is vanishingly small. It doesn't need an egomaniac to recognize that (though saying that doesn't exclude the possibility that I am, indeed, an egomaniac).
Permalink DF 
March 28th, 2007 11:08am
> Surely everyone salivates over whatever revelation she brought forth this week?

You have an amazing ability to turn the smallest of things into the most menacing of things so you feel justified and attacking and killing.
Permalink son of parnas 
March 28th, 2007 11:10am
>You have an amazing ability to turn the smallest of things into the most menacing of things so you feel justified and attacking and killing.

What is the smallest thing that you're talking about? WHO am I attacking and killing? I'm confused. I'm getting that somehow I'm the antagonist (in more ways than one!) of this plot you've imagined, but I fail to see who the protagonist is.

I'm just some asshole giving an opinion, as I am allowed to do. As you're allowed to do.
Permalink DF 
March 28th, 2007 11:12am
> I'm confused.

It's OK.
Permalink son of parnas 
March 28th, 2007 11:50am
>It's OK.

I think I must have miscommunicated a bit. I meant to say "your blathering is baseless, with little tie-in to actual reality. Do you even have a point?", but "I'm confused" required fewer keystrokes.
Permalink DF 
March 28th, 2007 12:06pm
"In the original thread, itself offtopic, it was questioned how I didn't know who the Great Kathy Sierra was -- surely everyone browses the beginner Java books, right? Surely everyone salivates over whatever revelation she brought forth this week?"

How about google? And you are (kind of) stupid for not even heard about "Head First Java".

Well, only in your imagination is that everyone thinks she is goddess.
Permalink Rick Zeng/Tseng 
March 28th, 2007 12:53pm
>How about google?

Hi Rick. Welcome to the point. Here at the point the whole point was that the point was that I had never heard of her before this whole ruckus, but suddenly she is EVERYWHERE. Do you understand, maybe perhaps, how then Googling her might not change the fact that I'd never heard of her?

Are you really this dumb in real life?

>And you are (kind of) stupid for not even heard about "Head First Java".

Yes, I'm stupid because I haven't heard of an introductory Java book series. Groan.

You're hilarious. Awesome too.
Permalink DF 
March 28th, 2007 12:57pm
>Well, only in your imagination is that everyone thinks she is goddess.

You know, I think that whenever someone mischaracterizes what someone has said so self-servingly and maliciously, they should be kicked in the face (twice) by a jack-booted kangaroo. The internet would be such a nicer place.

OMG! Did I just threaten you?
Permalink DF 
March 28th, 2007 12:59pm
You are my personal hero, though. Seriously, I do think you are awesome Rick, and it just wouldn't be the same without you.

Keep on keepin' on!
Permalink DF 
March 28th, 2007 1:02pm
> I think I must have miscommunicate

No, I don't think you ever intended to communicate so you could not mis it.
Permalink son of parnas 
March 28th, 2007 1:09pm
Ooooh, zing!

Ouch! That one burns!

Jesus, can't you be a bit gentler with me?
Permalink DF 
March 28th, 2007 1:13pm
I'm taking notes. There's some seriously high quality sparring in this thread. It's lovely in some peculiar way to see intelligent folks duke it out so -- um, gracefully? forcefully? witfully? -- over stuff so many degrees removed from the original topic.

(I think DF is incorrect on the OT, that the blogger is a link whore. But my sentiments are derived from having read her interactivity/design writings in the past. She's humorous, well-tempered and never overstepped the boundaries of humility. It is one of the traits she champions in a good designer. I don't know anything about the Java book. Bruce Eckel's is who I recommend to anyone trying to learn Java.)
Permalink Send private email strawberry snowflake 
March 28th, 2007 1:35pm
Yes. You are an idiot for not ever heard of Head First Java and then being proud of your ignorance.

If she is not so well-known, it will not be linked everywhere.

A one minute google will save you time broadcasting your ignorance.
Permalink Rick Zeng/Tseng 
March 28th, 2007 1:39pm
>Yes. You are an idiot for not ever heard of Head First Java and then being proud of your ignorance.

You're a colossal moron, Rick. Seriously.

>If she is not so well-known, it will not be linked everywhere.

It is linked everywhere because of "blogosphere" unity. A lot of people with nothing of interest to say, so it's something to fill the space. Oh, and she's a girl in IT, so that always gets weenies like you all excited.
Permalink DF 
March 28th, 2007 1:43pm
> Jesus, can't you be a bit gentler with me?

Is that what you say to your top?


> You are an idiot for not ever heard

Perhaps not an idiot, but uninformed. It was a rather radical break in style for tech books and its success opened some eyes.
Permalink son of parnas 
March 28th, 2007 1:43pm
>Is that what you say to your top?

Bwahahahaha, some homophobic humor in there! Good stuff. You're really resorting to the top-tier comebacks now.

>Perhaps not an idiot, but uninformed.

I guess I just haven't kept up to date on introductory books for a platform that is irrelevant to me. Oh, even better I haven't carefully enumerated the authors of said books to build my cult of personality heroes to celebrate.

I'm sure Rick knows, though. He probably has wasted much seed to her visage (a girl! In programming!)
Permalink DF 
March 28th, 2007 1:48pm
> some homophobic humor

Your ignorance shines once again.
Permalink son of parnas 
March 28th, 2007 1:54pm
>Your ignorance shines once again.

Do you have advanced Alzheimer's or something? Your comebacks are terribly impotent and seldom even meshing with reality. Yeah, everyone knows what you meant, and there was little confusion with it. Backtrack now at your peril, homophobe.

I want everyone to know, however, that I don't believe that SoP is a gay-bashing racist pig, however.
Permalink DF 
March 28th, 2007 1:57pm
"I think DF is incorrect on the OT, that the blogger is a link whore."

DF only thinks it is possible the blogger is a link whore.

Fine. But in this case, the possibility is basically zero.

If DF is a little bit less egomanic he'll understand this if he is willing to research the topic for one minute.

Oh, I almost forgot, DF received DEATH THREATS! Obviously Katie should be like him and ignore them. How weak-minded she is for chicken out and stupid for writing it on the blog.

Yes, everyone, includes idiots like DF, can blog. But Katie is no ordinary blogger -- an inconvinient fact that impact someone's ego so the only escape is to ignore the reality.
Permalink Rick Zeng/Tseng 
March 28th, 2007 1:57pm
>Oh, I almost forgot, DF received DEATH THREATS! Obviously Katie should be like him and ignore them.

Almost anyone who has spent any time on the internet has received vague "threats" of the sort that she has gone out of her way to observe (while some of them were in her comments, she felt a need to follow the rants of critics on a whole other site). Many have received much more specific, detailed threats, by nefarious, known actors that you can't detail by name.

And let me say that I think she invented the whole "the police are investigating" drama. As one of the "culprits" asked -- tell him the detective with the case and he'll contact him directly. Otherwise it sounds as weak as the "my lawyers will be contacting you!" threats. If the police were contacted, the first thing they'd demand is that she didn't post a confrontational, evidence destroying expose on her blog.

And it isn't necessarily the possibility that she's a link whore -- she could just be using this situation to strike back, dramatizing it. I mean I'm now seeing the "blog strike" to demand a change (what sort of change they want is nebulous and undefined. That all the trolls straighten up or they won't get Scoble's pearls anymore?), and of course a lynch mob has formed to get the culprits.
Permalink DF 
March 28th, 2007 2:15pm
Good summary, Rick.  Coherent, too!
Permalink Send private email Ward 
March 28th, 2007 2:17pm
As an exercise, imagine if Joel has a spasm one day and shut down his blog, declaring that some of the things he read about him on CoT was so disturbing that he just can't go on. People here have viciously criticized him, posted photoshopped pictures of him, and many know significant personal details about him.

How would you react?
Permalink DF 
March 28th, 2007 2:42pm
Oh, and he directly linked to Wayne's personal details, as well as any forum participant that he could directly name.
Permalink DF 
March 28th, 2007 2:43pm
You should've seen the looks on the faces of my cheerleading cousin's teeny bopper friends when I insulted Britney!
Permalink JoC 
March 28th, 2007 3:31pm
It's a valid point that as death threats aren't really part of her blog's stated purpose/content field she didn't have to blog about the affair so much. What purpose was there in publishing IP addresses, ranting about police, etc? Perhaps the threat was harsh enough to bring out her need to feel commiserated. Dunno what I would have done under same circumstances. Only time will tell whether this impacts her other content adversely.
Permalink Send private email strawberry snowflake 
March 28th, 2007 4:36pm
> Do you have advanced Alzheimer's or something?

We already compared notes, don't you remember?

> Backtrack now at your peril, homophobe.

S&M isn't homophobic my dear DF.

> I want everyone to know, however, that I don't believe that SoP is a gay-bashing racist pig

If you did my cred would certainly increase.
Permalink son of parnas 
March 28th, 2007 4:48pm
Do keep it down to a dull roar (I have a bit of a hangover).
Permalink trollop 
March 28th, 2007 7:46pm
"Dunno what I would have done under same circumstances."

Yeah, and who knows what I would think of Joel :)
Permalink Rick Zeng/Tseng 
March 28th, 2007 7:52pm
"People here have viciously criticized him, posted photoshopped pictures of him, and many know significant personal details about him. "

Can someone repost those pictures? I missed that.  Or is this DF being full of shit?
Permalink Oddposter 
March 28th, 2007 8:35pm
Oh I remember those pictures :-) it was linked in a Daily WTF profile if I recall...
Permalink bob's your uncle 
March 28th, 2007 8:56pm
Are we reminiscing about the goatse Joel?
Permalink JoC 
March 29th, 2007 10:39am
Rick, a few years back a little girl in Texas fell in a well.  It was a big production getting her out and the media came from all corners of the country to report on it continuously for days.

You could not escape hearing about Baby Jessica in this country.

She did not have a blog.  She was not a famous baby.  She BECAME famous because of the reporting on the incident -- which is not to say there weren't a few people who knew her beforehand.

Do you see how that relates to DF's point at all? 


I was doing Java work for 3 years and never heard of her.  I am not a follower of something apparently called "The Blogosphere," but her comments about this wonderful movement she's started certainly don't read like someone who just wants this to go away.

Whether that means it's all a publicity stunt or she's milking or whatever, I don't know, but I think you'd benefit by learning to be a little skeptical.
Permalink Lurk Machine 
March 29th, 2007 3:29pm
"her comments about this wonderful movement she's started certainly don't read like someone who just wants this to go away.

Whether that means it's all a publicity stunt or she's milking or whatever, I don't know, but I think you'd benefit by learning to be a little skeptical."

I personnally think you guys are too paranoid. She's not unknown before this.

Short of a poll we'd never know how many have heard of "Head First Java". My guess is that it's very well known.
Permalink Send private email Rick Zeng/Tseng 
March 29th, 2007 5:48pm

This topic is archived. No further replies will be accepted.

Other topics: March, 2007 Other topics: March, 2007 Recent topics Recent topics