Yoda was wrong
Yoda was wrong. The message in "Do, or do not, there is no try." is completely wrong.
We being fallable humans, dealing with a complicated reality, the only way we CAN move forward is by trying, having small successes, and moving forward again.
Putting the requirement on ourselves that we reach the final goal in one shot is unrealistic and self-defeating.
"Try, try, and try again. Learn from your mistakes. Keep moving forward." -- would be a MUCH better message.
April 15th, 2007 11:57am
I think Yoda was talking about your intent rather than outcome. That should be single pointed and complete.
son of parnas
April 15th, 2007 11:58am
You ask a developer to get a system rewrite done in a week. He tells you it's pretty much impossible. You tell him it simply has to be done (or the Klingons will destroy the Death Star and the Shadows will triumph over the Decepticons)
There is a significant psychological difference between saying
"Okay, I'll try" (openly allows failure as a valid option)
"Okay, I'll do it" (does not allow failure as a valid option)
April 15th, 2007 1:10pm
My wife and I have this discussion every so often.
I'm a big believer in achievable goals. Following the idea that promises made and then kept lead to integrity.
She's been taught to set unachievable goals, then do whatever she can to get close to them. And she always falls short, BUT she gets further than she thinks she would have if she'd set more realistic goals.
And for her, it's ok not to reach the actual goal, because that was unachievable in the first place.
So I guess it is about attitude, and promises, and goals, and achievability. Interesting.
April 15th, 2007 2:20pm
Well, I do believe in setting achievable goals. I'm talking about rare occasions where exigent circumstances set your goals for you, at they appear unachievable. (Like when your x-wing lands in a swamp and you have to get it out to save your friends from a Sith Lord)
But no, you shouldn't live your life like that. Unless you're married to a rocket scientist and feel the need to pull your weight because he's always setting "safe" goals and never really stretching himself... [g,d,r]
April 15th, 2007 2:28pm
> Following the idea that promises made and then kept lead to integrity.
Existence trumps integrity.
April 15th, 2007 3:25pm
First, Yoda is not really a wise Buddhist master, he is a fictional character invented by George Lucas, a guy who is into the fantasy genre, but who has never depicted any true life wisdom. So it's a mistake to think you should follow Yoda's teachings because he is wise and old. He is neither, he is a puppet.
It's pretty common in engineering work to be told by a despotic manager that you have a goal that must be achieved but which can not be achieved. This is a game they play to their own benefit. They may tell themselves setting impossible goals helps make you strong like a man as if it is some sort of football game or martial arts movie, but many social scientists have found that this tactic contributes to crime and the breakdown of society because people faced with impossible goals become so frustrated they turn away from goals that help society/authority figures and towards other means of finding satisfaction in their lives that are actually attainable.
Please read the following for more information on this topic:
April 15th, 2007 3:55pm
April 15th, 2007 4:00pm
I am familiar with Hanlon's Law. If posting a single link to something that is not obviously related to any particular posts, please reference the post and provide some hint of the relevance. Thanks.
April 15th, 2007 4:13pm
Luke's task was as pure an act of will as you could conceive. In which case, trying wasn't any good, only belief that he could do it would allow him to do it.
There are life lessons to learn from this, though it can't be applied universally to every situation, as Yoda implied.
April 15th, 2007 4:23pm
PE, my link was in response to
"It's pretty common in engineering work to be told by a despotic manager that you have a goal that must be achieved but which can not be achieved. This is a game they play to their own benefit."
You state that managers give impossible goals with a definite goal in mind. I suspect 99% of the time it's because they're idiots who have already promised unreasonable deadlines and now have to deliver.
April 15th, 2007 4:48pm
>>Luke's task was as pure an act of will as you could conceive. In which case, trying wasn't any good, only belief that he could do it would allow him to do it.
agreed. it was more about faith than an engineering accomplishment.
April 15th, 2007 9:59pm
Gotta have faith.
April 15th, 2007 10:27pm
Therefore the sages got their knowledge without travelling; gave
their names to things without seeing them; and accomplished
their ends without any purpose of doing so.
April 15th, 2007 10:41pm
there's a huge difference between knowingly setting yourself a tough goal, knowing that getting half way is still good, and doing it to someone else.
what the hell did yoda say anyhow?
April 16th, 2007 7:15am
You didn't read the OP?
Yoda said, "Do, or do not, there is no try."
Which is almost completely wrong. Despite some of the responders insistence that Yoda was talking about intent rather than action. "Do" and "Try" are both action verbs.
April 16th, 2007 10:08am
> "Do" and "Try" are both action verbs.
And from where do actions flow?
son of parnas
April 16th, 2007 10:21am