Sanding our assholes with 150 grit. Slowly. Lovingly.

White bread :(

I've been so hypnotized by health disinformation that I have instinctively bought and asked for only whole wheat bread thinking it was clearly better for you.  I never challenged the assumption simply because EVERYONE says white bread = DIABETES/HEART ATTACK/BAD.

Motherfucker, a slice of Wonderbread has half as many calories as whole wheat -- approximately 45 vs. 80.  Some whole wheat bread runs 120 calories.  For what?  Faux healthiness?

If I could retroactively replace whole wheat with white bread in all of the sandwiches I've eaten the last 5 years, I estimate I'd have consumed 104,000 less calories.  That's nearly 30 pounds!

I'm a pretty skeptical person but I still get constantly suckered by this shit simply because it's screamed from every information orifice as fact.
Permalink Michael B 
April 22nd, 2007 12:18pm
To be fair, wonder bread really isn't "bread" any more than American Processed Cheez Food Product is "cheese" or Budweiser is "beer"
Permalink Send private email Philo 
April 22nd, 2007 12:38pm
Depends on the bread I'm sure. I look for bread without any ingredients I can't pronounce. Unfortunately, this limits my options severely.
Permalink Practical Economist 
April 22nd, 2007 12:39pm
Michael B, take a look at your entire diet.  You didn't gain 30 extra pounds just from eating too much whole wheat bread.  It's still better to eat less whole wheat bread with its better nutrition than more white bread even though it has fewer calories.

Calories aren't everything.  Take a look at your entire diet, not just one individual food, to see why you've gained too much weight. 

You're almost always better off eating less processed food (i.e., whole wheat) vs. factory-made crap (white bread).
Permalink AMerrickanGirl 
April 22nd, 2007 1:14pm
Calories are a really, really bad way to measure how healthy something is.
Permalink Colm 
April 22nd, 2007 1:18pm
There's absolutely nothing wrong with my diet.

I simply want to knock some weight off but only to satisfy an unrealistic standard of beauty.

Reducing calories slightly is exactly the way to do it, and it's frustrating to discover that I accepted something as fact when it was actually total bullshit.
Permalink Michael B 
April 22nd, 2007 1:54pm
But it WASN'T bullshit. Whole wheat bread is still better for you as far as heart disease, diabetes, and so on.  So is brown rice better for you than white rice, even if the brown has slightly more calories.

Low calories does not automatically = healthier, and if the low calorie food is highly processed, it's even less healthier.  I'm sure that eating whole wheat bread is not the reason for your weight gain.
Permalink AMerrickanGirl 
April 22nd, 2007 2:09pm
Anyway, if you want to reduce calories, eat less fat, more fruits, vegetables and whole grains, and lean protein.  And if you're a beer or soda drinker, start drinking water.
Permalink AMerrickanGirl 
April 22nd, 2007 2:10pm
"less healthier" should have been "less healthy".  I wish we had an edit feature!
Permalink AMerrickanGirl 
April 22nd, 2007 2:11pm
> But it WASN'T bullshit. Whole wheat bread is still better for you as far as heart disease, diabetes, and so on.  So is brown rice better for you than white rice, even if the brown has slightly more calories.

PROVE IT
Permalink Michael B 
April 22nd, 2007 2:12pm
are your neighbors in the trailer park making fun of you because you got the fancy bread and are still fat?

what are you looking for here? validation that you could have been eating wonderbread all along? sure, maybe wonderbread is just as healthy as whole wheat. you'd be getting 45 less calories per slice but increasing your white trash factor by an order of magnitude. have some class.
Permalink hello. 
April 22nd, 2007 2:19pm
I'm looking for someone to share my righteous indignation:

"I'm a pretty skeptical person but I still get constantly suckered by this shit simply because it's screamed from every information orifice as fact."
Permalink Michael B 
April 22nd, 2007 2:21pm
Michael you fat goon, do you exercise at all?

Dana is on point though.
Permalink what are you reading for? 
April 22nd, 2007 2:24pm
http://www.alive.com/1377a4a2.php?subject_bread_cramb=491

"Choosing whole grain products “more often” is not enough, and “enriched” grain products are simply refined foods to which a few synthetic vitamins and minerals have been added in a feeble attempt to replace the complex composition of phytonutrients removed during refining. The term “impoverished” would more accurately represent their nutritional value than the misleading term “enriched."

AT any rate, if you're looking to cut calories, don't start by worrying about how many calories are in whole wheat bread.  Look at the other foods you're eating, and I'm sure you can find less healthy foods that are high in calories that you could reduce or eliminate (ice cream?  beer?  candy?  potato chips?, etc.).  Eating lo-cal white bread is not going to offset these junk foods.
Permalink AMerrickanGirl 
April 22nd, 2007 2:24pm
I don't eat sandwiches very often, so I'm afraid I can't share your indignation.
Permalink hello. 
April 22nd, 2007 2:26pm
> Michael you fat goon, do you exercise at all?

5 times a week, Taekwondo and weight lifting. I also walk between 1-2 miles a day.  My cardiologist says I'm in perfect health (which wasn't always the case).

My chest and abdominals are pronounced, they just have a film of fat on them that make it hard to play volleyball with the Baywatch crowd.

;)
Permalink Michael B 
April 22nd, 2007 2:31pm
I'm not convinced that when humans were evolving they ate much in the way of carbs at all - most of the so-called 'natural diet' is post hunter-gatherer.
Permalink Billx 
April 22nd, 2007 2:33pm
AMerrickanGirl, that only thing that's right in that article is

* Obesity increases diabetes/heart disease.

We know that obesity is caused by consuming more calories than are burned, but everything else stated therein is unsubstantiated.
Permalink Michael B 
April 22nd, 2007 2:37pm
> I'm not convinced that when humans were evolving they ate much in the way of carbs at all - most of the so-called 'natural diet' is post hunter-gatherer.

And in their natural diet cats didn't come across Taurine, but it turns out that this cat food additive greatly increases their lifespan.

I wouldn't put too much faith in nature's plan for you.  Once you've reached child bearing age nature has abandoned your cause.
Permalink Michael B 
April 22nd, 2007 2:39pm
Michael, it's common sense that whole foods from nature will usually be better for you than foods that have been stripped of all of their nutrients, then have a few of them added back in.

And since taurine is present in animal protein, it is always available to cats who hunt their own food.  Cats who go blind from taurine deficiency often have owners who mistakenly try to feed the cats a vegetarian diet.  So taurine does not need to be added to a cat's diet unless the cat isn't getting animal protein.  And most dry cat food is made up mostly of corn (!), so of course the cats do better when taurine is added.
Permalink AMerrickanGirl 
April 22nd, 2007 2:49pm
Michael B,

White bread is mostly air. Surely you noticed that whole wheat bread weighs more than white bread. Did you really expect it to weigh more and contain fewer calories?

Sincerely yours,
The Logic Police
Permalink Send private email  
April 22nd, 2007 2:58pm
A major benefit of whole wheat bread, being that it contains more complex carbohydrates, is that it satiates hunger significantly longer than enriched white flour bread.

In other words -- those whole wheat slices controlled your blood sugar, and made it much less likely that you'd immediately want a big bowl of ice cream.
Permalink DF 
April 22nd, 2007 3:59pm
Dennis, there you go ruining a perfectly good argument with facts again.
Permalink Send private email Philo 
April 22nd, 2007 6:09pm
Dividing breads into white/wheat is a naive distinction.  You really need to read the ingredients.

Why would bread need high fructose corn syrup added?  Why would "whole wheat" bread consist of mainly processed enriched & bleached wheat?

Same thing applies to cereal -- buying from the top shelf at the store is not enough to eat healthy -- you have to read the ingredients.  Just because it has the words "Whole" or "Bran" on it doesn't mean it doesn't also have bad stuff like HFCS.
Permalink xampl 
April 22nd, 2007 6:26pm
I've only a few points here -

1. White bread and other processed carbs e.g white rice and pasta are easier to digest and also less filling. So, by eating 2 slices of wholewheat bread (extra points if it's got stuff on top) you will burn more calories AND feel more full as well as have a better bowel movement due to the fibre that exists in it. White bread is pretty pointless, you'd sooner eat tissue paper.

2. I've been heavier, fatter, larger, whatever you want to call it, SINCE being diagnosed with diabetes. Don't explain that away, it's just random. Mainly since the insulin I take increases weight gain, somehow I forget how.

I'd say that you need to do what Dana says and Colm too - calories don't help you much, it's a fallacy to think that calorie counting helps loose weight (although Weight Watchers would have you believe the 20 points thingy is a good measure, I think it's just a strategy to make you realise how little goodness is in cake and how much better salad and brown bread is).
Permalink Send private email AP 
April 22nd, 2007 7:49pm
We had this discussion at work.  I told a colleague that I don't eat much bread or pasta or white rice.  So of course, he asked me to go into detail.

I don't believe high-glycemic carbs are appropriate for most people unless you are running a marathon or something.  There's enough carbs in high-fiber food for regular people, so wheat-gluten based and processed/bleached flour stuffs are empty calories that maintain a carb addiction.  Bad.

So anyway, when you eat so-called wheat bread, who knows if it isn't just white bread dyed brown unless you read the nutrition label...well, that set him off.  So any time he sees me eat bread, which is something like once a month when I just grab a sandwich from the local deli...I have to hear about my theory from his mouth, sarcastically.  He really wants to eat bread a lot, and my theory irritates him, I guess.  So now he at least buys real whole wheat bread, which is better for you and more filling.

I say, screw you people who think all calories are alike.  You think you are supposed to know something about nutrition from watching the nightly news or something.  How stupid is that.

There are perfectly good books that talk about nutrition, with carbs vs. proteins vs. fats discussion that will clear up your stupid notions. 

A good rule of thumb, for those of you who refuse to learn about nutrition:  anything processed, in a box, a can, or that says "quick and easy" on it is NOT GOOD FOR YOU.
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
April 22nd, 2007 8:52pm
P.S.  Don't eat anything high-glycemic for dinner and with regular exercise, your abs will eventually show.  This means eat some green veggie, a good fat (olive oil, flaxseed oil, etc.) and a protein before 8PM.  Abs will show in a month or two if you are already fit.
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
April 22nd, 2007 8:54pm
calorie counting works pretty well for obsessive nerd types who are into recording things in spreadsheets. check out johnstonefitness.com... the guy went from 215 and flabby to 165 and buff in about six months by being totally obsessive about recording all his exercise and food intake.
Permalink hello. 
April 22nd, 2007 10:01pm
OP was just about how I've come to reintroduce white bread into my arsenal of food.  But the whole thread illustrates a common theme: every time someone says they want their weight to be a different number, the advice that gets automatically injected into the discussion is:

* Drink 64oz of water a day
* Drink diet instead of regular
* Eat more fruits/veggies
* More proteins and less carbs
* Flaxseed oil
* Whole wheat instead of white
* Don't eat before bed
* Eat six small meals a day
* "Good fats"
* Lower salt
* Exercise!!
* Lift weights!
* Omega-3 vs. Omega-6 balance

And it's all such bullshit.  The answer is, always has been, always will be: lose weight by creating a calorie deficit.

Anything else is just a psychological trick to get you to do that.  I'm just as guilty of buying into this crap, if not more-so, than the average person is.

That article son of parnas linked was a psychological sucker punch:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/magazine/28nutritionism.t.html?ex=1327640400&en=7c85a1c254546157&ei=5088
Permalink Michael B 
April 23rd, 2007 1:14pm
(FWIW, I'm not arguing against things like exercise and weight lifting, etc.  But it's not an automatic cure and it simplifies things.  It's totally possible to do plenty of both and still be overweight.)
Permalink Michael B 
April 23rd, 2007 1:18pm
Eating healthy makes it worlds easier to cut calories.  You simply don't get as hungry, and you feel better.  As sticking to a diet is generally the difficulty, not starting it, all the advice listed above makes sense.
Permalink the great purple 
April 23rd, 2007 1:23pm
> I say, screw you people who think all calories are alike.  You think you are supposed to know something about nutrition from watching the nightly news or something.  How stupid is that.

They're totally identical.

Calories are fuel.  Your body can burn them immediately after ingestion or convert them to fat/muscle to save them for later.  If you want to lose some of the stored fuel, you've got to consume fuel at a rate faster than you store fuel.

This process does not give a shit where your calories come from. You can increase body-fat even if you eat nothing but protein and you can lose body-fat even if you eat nothing but fat.

(YES, Captain Obvious, eating nothing but pure lard all day will kill you, but that's a different argument.)
Permalink Michael B 
April 23rd, 2007 1:27pm
> Michael, it's common sense that whole foods from nature will usually be better for you than foods that have been stripped of all of their nutrients, then have a few of them added back in.

That was NOT what you said.  What you said was: "Whole wheat bread is still better for you as far as heart disease, diabetes, and so on."

This claim is ENTIRELY BASELESS.  Why don't you ask yourself why you believe this?
Permalink Michael B 
April 23rd, 2007 1:37pm
If you want to justify eating that crap - go right ahead - its still crap
Permalink Ted 
April 23rd, 2007 2:57pm
Wholemeal bread or brown rice is better for you than the refined equivalents because you need the fibre. There are also likely to be nutrients in the husk that are missing in the white version (remember how officer in the Jap POW camps got beri beri because they had white rice whilst the troops who had brown rice didn't).

Wholemeal bread will have less calories per gram than white bread, unless they have done something very strange to the whitebread or added lots of sweeteners to the wholemeal bread.

Now they make wholemeal flour by adding the husk to white flour.
Permalink Send private email Stephen Jones 
April 23rd, 2007 3:00pm
hi Michael B. It is true that you can lose weight by eating anything, so long as you take in fewer calories than you burn. Your white bread idea sounds great. How about you start a new diet plan where you just eat three baloney sandwiches per day. I'm sure you will lose quite a few pounds and show all those wheat bread motherfuckers who's boss.
Permalink hello. 
April 23rd, 2007 3:01pm
"Calories are fuel.  Your body can burn them immediately after ingestion or convert them to fat/muscle to save them for later.  If you want to lose some of the stored fuel, you've got to consume fuel at a rate faster than you store fuel. "


Okay. Have a good time trying to maintain your health only eating white bread and sausages.  Since all calories are the same, you will look the same, regardless, right?  Heh.

Did you ever wonder why bodybuilders don't simply limit their calories to their favorite foods rather than eating healthy food?  Do you think it makes a difference in muscle quality?

Nah, couldn't be.  Go for it smart guy.
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
April 23rd, 2007 6:11pm
> I'm sure you will lose quite a few pounds and show all those wheat bread motherfuckers who's boss.

Is fast food better or worse than baloney sandwiches?

I've knocked 50 pounds off eating fast food nearly every day (McDonalds, Wendy's, etc.), focusing strictly on number of calories and ignoring the rest.  Exercise helped too.

My blood pressure was so high my doctor tried twice to convince me to take medication to control it.  My liver enzyme values where out of wack too.  I refused the blood pressure meds and took some action.

Since then, my blood pressure has dropped to normal and my resting heart rate has come down to 55bpm (in the mornings it dips to as low as 49).  Liver enzyme values returned to normal.

I could still stand to lose 10 pounds of fat, but because I'm not in, oh, mortal danger anymore it's not top priority.

My doctor gave me a clean bill of health and it had fuck-all to do with omega3 fatty acids and glycemic indices.

Put that in your oat bran and choke on it.
Permalink Michael B 
April 23rd, 2007 6:54pm
But what do you look like?  Are you skinny fat?

Are your abs what they could be?

Are you living up to your genetic potential given the level of exercise you say you do?

Bodybuilders eat a certain way to bring out muscle.  If that is your goal, then eating McD's is not going to do it.  If you just want to be thin, with possible high cholesterol, diabetes, etc., then go for it. 

I could give a flying fuck about your diet. 

I eat the way I do because it is good for me. If you want to eat white bread, then eat white bread.  I explained why I don't.

But then, my goal isn't to be a skinny person. 

What I find interesting here is that you people eschew mainstream bullshit but you are such hypocrites:  all you want to be is one of the popular people.

The body I strive for has nothing to do with mainstream crap.  I seek to build muscle, strength, and have a better quality life where as I get older, I can do things that other old people won't be able to do because they have eaten hamburgers all their lives. 

Sure, there are always exceptions blah  blah blah.
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
April 23rd, 2007 6:58pm
And Michael B, while you may be one of the exceptions, please don't spew your crap to women over 35 trying to lose weight and build muscle tone (which keeps the weight off).

99% of the time, they won't make it on what you eat. Period. I stand by that.
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
April 23rd, 2007 7:00pm
"lose weight by creating a calorie deficit. "

Most people won't make it because they won't feel full if they simply eat 2000 calories consisting of soda pop and chips.

Half the battle is psychologically dealing with hunger.  If you don't master that, forget it.
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
April 23rd, 2007 7:03pm
> Bodybuilders eat a certain way to bring out muscle.  If that is your goal, then eating McD's is not going to do it.  If you just want to be thin, with possible high cholesterol, diabetes, etc., then go for it

That one paragraph is packed so tight with disinformation:

1. Big muscles don't mean strong muscles and toned muscles aren't always big muscles.

2. Arterial cholesterol is totally unrelated to dietary cholesterol.

3. There is no link between the kinds of food you eat and diabetes/heart disease.  What you're actually thinking of is obesity showing an increased risk of disease.

Don't be ashamed, I believed all this stuff too once.

Anyway, since you're asking about my body, I have pretty well-defined legs and chest/abdominals (due to several years of Taekwondo).  My arms need to catch up so I've started lifting too.

What frustrates me about all of the psychological trickery is that it does a better job of confusing me than helping me make proper choices.

The Hacker's Diet was the first one that delivered the information I needed to know, and I base a large part of my improvement on it:

http://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/www/hackdiet.html
Permalink Michael B 
April 23rd, 2007 7:21pm
So I can eat white bread and baloney sandwiches only and still have nice muscles?

Nope. You still haven't proven that. 

Try again.  You dance all around the subject without any substance.
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
April 23rd, 2007 8:33pm
----"3. There is no link between the kinds of food you eat and diabetes/heart disease.  What you're actually thinking of is obesity showing an increased risk of disease. "-------

You're only going to lose weight if you eat less calories than you consume. In that respect you are quite right.

It is difficult to prove a clear-cut link between a particular food and heart disease or diabetes (let alone a particular nutrient) because there are so many variables involved. Nevertheless certain diets correspond to a high incidence of heart disease and diabetes and certain to a lower one; moreover the change in a communities diet from one to another often brings with it increase in heart disease and diabetes.

If you simply make a point of eating lots of different kinds of food, you should do fine. And if possible eat food as opposed to foodstuffs that come in packets.
Permalink Send private email Stephen Jones 
April 24th, 2007 3:38pm

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