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a little bit o' hate

I was outside enjoying the weather yesterday when I saw a muslim and his wife.  The wife was covered head to toe in a black burka thing.  It was almost 80 degrees F out. He was in a nice shirt and sandals, hair blowing in the beautiful breeze.

My first feeling was extreme anger/hate toward him and her.  That she would come to a country with a tradition of freedom, and that my countrymen and women fought for our freedoms. 

The irony is, of course, they should be free to do and dress as they wish.

My problem with them is they come here and do not assimilate our culture, but instead, bring their oppressive traditions. 

It would be one thing if the man were covered.  But he wasn't.  Just the wife.

I hated feeling that hatred.  But I felt it.
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
April 29th, 2007 9:36pm
It looked just like this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6598685.stm

interesting story about a play about burkas that was banned by the burka supporters.
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
April 29th, 2007 9:38pm
1.  I agree.

2.  She'd probably be less comfortable wearing a shirt and skirt and having him yell at her, than wearing the Burkha

3.  We can't make choices for others.

4.  I hope it's not as hot as it looks.
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
April 29th, 2007 9:48pm
"My problem with them is they come here and do not assimilate our culture, but instead, bring their oppressive traditions."

Hey, they came here to learn from the best.
Permalink Send private email Philo 
April 29th, 2007 9:55pm
I saw one on my road today too (a lot of Muslims live around my area). Didn't mean a thing.

What somebody else chooses to wear of their own volition is their business and it should stay that way.
Permalink Colm 
April 29th, 2007 9:57pm
Assuming they're not coerced, sure.  Now let's define "coercion".
Permalink Send private email muppet 
April 29th, 2007 9:57pm
Coersion: If you don't do it, we'll stone you to death.

?
Permalink Send private email Philo 
April 29th, 2007 9:58pm
That's about where I was thinking.
Permalink Send private email muppet 
April 29th, 2007 10:00pm
How would you have felt if they were both naked? Should they have the freedom to wear nothing?
Permalink Wondering 
April 29th, 2007 10:01pm
>If you don't do it, we'll stone you to death.

Little difficult to threaten in the UK or the USA.
Permalink Colm 
April 29th, 2007 10:02pm
Oh, not so long ago a woman was tied up in a car and burned to death along with the vehicle for cheating on him or somesuch.  Muslim couple.
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
April 29th, 2007 10:02pm
"How would you have felt if they were both naked? Should they have the freedom to wear nothing?"

Are you asking what is the difference between being forced to wear a burka vs. walking about naked?
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
April 29th, 2007 10:03pm
I sometimes wonder how many of you people have actually talked to a single woman in a burkha? Just one? Ever?

Do you actually know who is pressuring them into wearing them? Hint: it's typically *not* men (sorry sharkie).
Permalink Colm 
April 29th, 2007 10:05pm
I didn't say it was men.
Permalink Send private email muppet 
April 29th, 2007 10:06pm
Frankly I've never cared about anything you've said.
Permalink Colm 
April 29th, 2007 10:07pm
"Are you asking what is the difference between being forced to wear a burka vs. walking about naked?"

No, I was asking how you would feel if they freely chose to walk around naked instead of freely chose to walk around burkad.
Permalink Wondering 
April 29th, 2007 10:09pm
"Do you actually know who is pressuring them into wearing them? Hint: it's typically *not* men (sorry sharkie)."

Who performs the honor killings?
Permalink Send private email Philo 
April 29th, 2007 10:10pm
Why, sharkie's neighbors obviously.
Permalink Colm 
April 29th, 2007 10:11pm
The honor killings DO happen.

I am quite aware and have met women who defend the burka vehemently. My SO has classmates who she chats with regularly. She thinks the burkas are awful and represent something heinous.

They symbolize that it is okay to tell women what to do and that they/we have a "place" that should be dictated by men.

I find that so offensive.
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
April 29th, 2007 10:20pm
"My SO has classmates who she chats with regularly."

should be

My SO has classmates who she chats with regularly who wear the burkas to class.  She wishes they would bathe more often.
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
April 29th, 2007 10:20pm
As far as the heat goes, in oppressive weather, those things are pretty cool inside. There's a reason why they wear them in the desert. Some women want to wear them for philosophical or religious reasons. Others because they are told to by their culture. How is it any different from wearing the latest fashions from Milan because that's what people do?
Permalink Practical Economist 
April 29th, 2007 10:29pm
"How is it any different from wearing the latest fashions from Milan because that's what people do?"

It wouldn't be if the religion were separated from it.  People use religion to oppress. The dress/burka is a symbol of that power.
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
April 29th, 2007 10:30pm
"Not so long ago a woman was tied up in a car and burned to death along with the vehicle for cheating on him or somesuch.  Muslim couple."

Are you saying that if she didn't cheat on him, she would still be alive?
Permalink Practical Economist 
April 29th, 2007 10:30pm
Yes.
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
April 29th, 2007 10:31pm
Why is religion singled out among all times of oppressions for hate? Fashion and cliques and conforming to social pressure and being susceptible to marketing messages are all the same thing. You're doing something not because you want to but because you have been told it's what you want to.
Permalink Practical Economist 
April 29th, 2007 10:32pm
OK, so on the burning, in the west, it's not uncommon for a spouse to shoot or dismember the other over some cheating or jealousy issue. So the issue here that the muslims are being singled out for is the particular manner of death, being burned alive, which I agree is pretty gruesome. If the muslim shot his wife instead, point blank to the head, like American men do, would your anger be at the general situation rather than that he was particularly muslim?
Permalink Practical Economist 
April 29th, 2007 10:34pm
Okay PE.  You got me.  I hate oppression.  There.  I said it.

In any shape or form.  I live in American culture, so our MANY MANY OPPRESSIVE TRADITIONS escape me because they are the background of my life.

The BURKA, is a striking reminder.

If I didn't wear the right designer jeans in high school, I was subject to ostracization.  Not death.  Not hatred by my entire community. 

If I marry an American wife-beater, there are places I can go to get away from him.  If I am part of an oppressive religion that supports wife-beating, I will be told to comply with my religion and be quiet, most likely.

The burka represents, to me, the slippery slope we women will be on as we try to maintain our advances.
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
April 29th, 2007 10:37pm
Wearing a burka out of convenience, pride in heritage, or adherence to religious beliefs - cool.

Wearing a burka so you don't get stopped by the police - bad.

Wearing a dress because you like the way you look in it - cool.

Wearing a dress because the Virginia State Bar won't let a woman sit for the bar exam wearing slacks (true, prior to 1995) - bad.

And so it goes.
Permalink Send private email Philo 
April 29th, 2007 10:38pm
Whoops, forgot the link: http://news.yahoo.com/photo/070422/ids_photos_wl/r2624642293.jpg
Permalink Send private email Philo 
April 29th, 2007 10:39pm
Wearing a burkha so you can share a bus pass with your sisters - good
Permalink Colm 
April 29th, 2007 10:39pm
LOL.

++Colm
Permalink Full name 
April 29th, 2007 10:44pm
Hilarious example about the Virginia State Bar Philo.

Shark, hey I'm against the crap they have in Sharia states where people - women AND men have to do all sorts of crap or risk having their sex organs cut off, or being buried to their necks and stoned to death, or head cut off, or whatever.

In the US, some woman wants to wear a burkha, that's fine. I actually think they are comfortable, I find arabian robes comfortable myself and would like to wear them, but mean can't wear 'dresses' in public in the US or they will get the shit beat out of them, you realize this, yes?
Permalink Practical Economist 
April 29th, 2007 10:50pm
Also let's not forget that burkas can be very fashionable:

http://news.yahoo.com/photo/070428/482/c3042604a55e489e987961d367b80540
Permalink Practical Economist 
April 29th, 2007 11:04pm
"Do you actually know who is pressuring them into wearing them? Hint: it's typically *not* men (sorry sharkie)."

I call BS.  The cop in Philo's photo looked like a man.
Permalink bob 
April 29th, 2007 11:19pm
quite:

http://mondo-canuckistani.blogspot.com/2007/01/burkini.html
Permalink Gotta go 
April 29th, 2007 11:24pm
I should have said to the couple "hey, she's not walking behind you!!! Get it right!"

<they were walking next to each other>
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
April 29th, 2007 11:28pm
Perfect link for this topic:
http://comment.independent.co.uk/columnists_a_l/johann_hari/article2496657.ece
Permalink Me 
April 30th, 2007 12:52am
"Do you believe in the rights of women, or do you believe in multiculturalism? You can't back both. You have to choose."

It's only in the Germanic countries that there is this addiction to black and white all or nothing.

Do you eat Sushi which is a Japanese dish? Do you celebrate Cinco de Maya? Are you taking classes in Polish folk dancing? Well, then you HATE women. You can't have both! You have to choose!
Permalink Practical Economist 
April 30th, 2007 1:00am
"Because the woman, as a Muslim, should have "expected" it, the judge explained. She read out passages from the Koran to show that Muslim husbands have the "right to use corporal punishment". Look at Sura 4, verse 34, she said to Nishal, where the Koran says he can hammer you. That's your culture. Goodbye, and enjoy your beatings."

I don't think this line of thinking is that far astray from what is possible in the US.
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
April 30th, 2007 1:01am
" mean can't wear 'dresses' in public in the US or they will get the shit beat out of them, you realize this, yes?"

Strangely enough, here in SF, the type of dudes who you would stereotype as kicking the shit out of a guy in a dress (drunken irish-descended tradesmen) are all wearing dresses to work. I keep seeing more and more carpenters, movers, roofers wearing these things:

http://www.utilikilts.com/index.php
Permalink hello. 
April 30th, 2007 1:11am
I don't know, I've never heard of that line of legal reasoning being used in any court in the US.

The only precedent is really India, where people are required to follow the rules for their religion. So muslims can be polygamous in India, but it's illegal for Hindus to be. That seems reasonable accommodation. But the things where it applies in India are well defined. They would not rule that you can beat your wife if you are a muslim.

The German judge's decision here is just psychopathic, but this is in line with MANY decisions being made nowadays by German courts. Their country is out of control and a very unpleasant place to live.
Permalink Practical Economist 
April 30th, 2007 1:14am
"mean can't wear 'dresses' in public in the US"

Yes because we all know that men are of the oppressed class.

Idiot.
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
April 30th, 2007 1:15am
I can always tell a woman-hater.  You hate women, PE.  You hate us and you feel justified in beating us.
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
April 30th, 2007 1:15am
Kilts are an exception, as long as it's clearly a kilt, that's ok. But a full length robe can get you beaten. A frilly bohemian number can get you beaten well. SF though is a bit of an exception, you can walk down the street wearing a leather g string and a baby bonnet and no one will even blink.
Permalink Practical Economist 
April 30th, 2007 1:16am
Yeah shark, and you say that you can tell everyone is a racist as well.
Permalink Practical Economist 
April 30th, 2007 1:16am
My wife wear head scarf (not burkha). It's her choice since university, long before we met each other. If you saw us on the street, will you hate us?
Permalink Lele 
April 30th, 2007 4:10am
heh. I know a Dutch couple that adopted Islam, she wears the whole letter box thing ...

They moved to Morocco because they don't feel "accepted" here. I hope they're gonna notice an improvement, but I doubt it.
Permalink $-- 
April 30th, 2007 5:07am
headscarves look OK. I see loads of women like that around here, no big deal. Can look quite cute, actually. Well, if she's pretty.
Permalink $-- 
April 30th, 2007 5:08am
Well and there you go with the whole justification for it. You're looking at someone's wife and thinking about her looks, you're lusting after her. That's objectifying her, which is demeaning her as a person, not just as a woman. I'm not criticizing that, it's how men look at women. In some parts of islam, they've realized they can never control how men will leer at women and objectify them, so the only way to stop this is to completely cover the woman from head to toe. That way men won't be thinking lustful, objectifying, demeaning thoughts.
Permalink Practical Economist 
April 30th, 2007 5:45am
"That way men won't be thinking lustful, objectifying, demeaning thoughts." 

Want to bet?
Permalink Wondering 
April 30th, 2007 7:02am
Except their lustful, objectifying thoughts are about women's hair and ankles, instead of their boobs.
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
April 30th, 2007 10:16am
Can you see the hair through the burka?

Agree about the ankles - I think I read something that ankle fetishism was a big thing back in victorian days, when all western women wore burkas.
Permalink Practical Economist 
April 30th, 2007 1:37pm
Just the very edge, sometimes.  And sometimes, a curl breaks free... Oooh.  Hubba hubba!
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
April 30th, 2007 2:10pm
That's kind of like getting one of thsoe perfectly angled nipple shots.
Permalink JoC 
May 1st, 2007 11:07am

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