A bunch of cunts, mostly in the Australian sense. Except that one guy.

Getting serious about boycotting Israel

If the bar code of the product you are buying starts with 729. It means it's made in Israel. Either don't buy it or buy it, fully use it then return it in a few days.

Time to stick it to these fucking zionists financially ... and boy or boy do we know where they feel the pain most.

Boycott Israel portal:

http://www.mylinkspage.com/israel.html

spread the word, let's speed up their demise
Permalink Dan Denman 
July 4th, 2007 9:24pm
Another idea would be to lobby ISPs to block sites hosted in Israel.
Permalink Dan Denman 
July 4th, 2007 9:26pm
If you are in Canada, don't buy your books from Chapters book store, it has some serious ties to the zionist regime. Also don't read the National Post and Vancouver Sun, both rim Israelis stinking buttholes for living.

Oh and dump the Stephen Fucking Harper ... The greatest douchbag of all time.

Time to get serious.
Permalink Dan Denman 
July 4th, 2007 9:30pm
Sadly the regular Israelis (who make this stuff) aren't always in favor of the way the government acts. Due to their weird electoral system, in fact, it's the crazy extremists who determine policy a lot of the time. So by not buying their products, you're sending the right message to the wrong people.

I don't buy Israeli fruit, however, which is often grown on occupied land.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 4th, 2007 9:48pm
Colm, I understand what you saying but then again, they are occupying someone else's land, killing Palestinians and depriving them of killing water.

They have to get the fuck out of there ... it's not their land and it never will be.
Permalink Dan Denman 
July 4th, 2007 10:06pm
depriving them of drinking water.
Permalink Dan Denman 
July 4th, 2007 10:06pm
I admire UK's trade unions and universities to boycott them ... they are not falling for if jews don't like you are an anti-semite crap. Time to put an end to the BS Israeli lobbies spew.
Permalink Dan Denman 
July 4th, 2007 10:08pm
Denman, what you don't realize is that Israel is the only stable and democratic regime in the ME.
Permalink  
July 4th, 2007 10:09pm
"Denman, what you don't realize is that Israel is the only stable and democratic regime in the ME."

Just like Nazi Germany ... very stable indeed!
Permalink Dan Denman 
July 4th, 2007 10:10pm
If this cock sucker spoke about African Americans the way he spews about Jews, how long would he last here?
Permalink LeftWingPharisee 
July 4th, 2007 10:57pm
Left, are you going to say I am anti-semite? like Oren? is that all you guys indoctrinated to say whenever criticized.
Permalink Dan Denman 
July 4th, 2007 10:59pm
It also should be publicly stated. For instance on the your web site, clearly state that we don't purchase stuff from so and so company because they support the apartheid regime of Israel.

In UK they have started it; it's going slow in the North America ... when tipping point is reached, the rest will be history.
Permalink Dan Denman 
July 4th, 2007 11:06pm
No, Israel certainly deserves criticism at times, like everybody else. No problem there.

But your idiotic, pathological obsession with Jews reminds me of my former father-in-law, a Holocaust denier. Whatever did we do to you, that you want to involve yourself in our blood feud?

Bottom line:

1) Before 1948, Jews bought land from Arabs. After 1948, they took land. So fucking what. That's how nation states are created, including the one you live in. The Jews were just better at than the Arabs.

2) Arabs are much better at oppressing Arabs than Jews are at oppressing Arabs. Even though Bush made things worse, Iraqis are basically killing other Iraqis. Where's the outrage over that? Or over the Darfur genocide? Or over the oppression of the Sinaitic peoples by the Egyptians, or the Berbers by the Arabs?

3) The only things the world has gotten from the Arab world since the Moghul invasion has been oil and revenge. The main motivation of the Philistine resistance is the fact that Jews, of all people, those weak Jews are running their lives.

Go do a Rachel Corrie and get your neck broken.
Permalink LeftWingPharisee 
July 4th, 2007 11:11pm
Blah blah blah ... you don't make any sense. You sound like Israel apologist.

Judaism rejects Israel .... go talk to any orthdox jew - don't be a pussy go ask.
Permalink Dan Denman 
July 4th, 2007 11:14pm
"Go do a Rachel Corrie and get your neck broken."

So criticize Israel and get whacked huh? hmmmm is it Mafia coming to one's mind?

dude you don't know shit.
Permalink Dan Denman 
July 4th, 2007 11:15pm
"The Jews were just better at than the Arabs. "

And you are not racist because?
Permalink Dan Denman 
July 4th, 2007 11:16pm
Don't argue Zionism with Dan -- it's a zero-sum game.  Like wrestling with a pig -- you both get covered with mud, but the pig enjoys it.

In other words, you ain't gonna convince him of anything, and he'll just parrot the company line.  If that's fun for you, go for it.
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
July 4th, 2007 11:26pm
I am an Orthodox Jew you idiot. The Neturei Karta wack jobs (to whom you are referring) are a tiny tiny tiny minority of Orthodox Jews.

Are Orthodox Jews all for a secular state? No. But the overwhelming majority strongly support our right to live there.

You and the Rachel Corrie types support people who are trying to kill my friends and family. I take it personally.

As far as being a racist, absolutely not. I don't classify Arabs as a subspecies. I have many Arab friends, actually, including some who served with the Israelis. I even like some aspects of Arab culture, such as their hospitality. But as a culture, they seem intent on fulfilling their description as laid out in the Bible: a "Wild Man".
Permalink LeftWingPharisee 
July 4th, 2007 11:29pm
Denman is the idiot I'm referring to.

StH, why is this drivel allowed in here? Seriously, would you allow it were it about some other ethnicity.

BTW, I have no problem with Colm's and other's support for the boycott being here.
Permalink LeftWingPharisee 
July 4th, 2007 11:31pm
You take it personally? who the fuck are you to take it personally? how about those Palestinians killed by your fucking Israeli friends and families huh?
Permalink Dan Denman 
July 4th, 2007 11:32pm
"BTW, I have no problem with Colm's and other's support for the boycott being here."

Really how very democratic of you considering your affiliations! go kindly fuck yourself.
Permalink Dan Denman 
July 4th, 2007 11:33pm
>Arabs are much better at oppressing Arabs than Jews are
>at oppressing Arabs.

Coop people up and they turn on each other. This is as evident in the Gaza strip as it was in the Jewish ghettos during the war.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 4th, 2007 11:33pm
"I have many Arab friends, actually, including some who served with the Israelis. "

Big freaking deal! you are a racist asshole just like Israeli apologist who build walls and kill Palestinians.
Permalink Dan Denman 
July 4th, 2007 11:35pm
LWP, this is CrazyOnTap.  An amazing amount of BS goes on here, and usually is safely ignored.

I respect you, you've had some well thought out opinions.  I didn't know you were Jewish, but that makes no difference in my level of respect.

I'm just saying, Dan is quite anti-semitic, while defending that he is not.  You're not going to change his mind.  Usually (often, MOSTLY) the best strategy to follow with Dan is to completely ignore him.  Occasionally, reading some of his stuff makes some sense. 

Now, you can raise many really good arguments, which he'll dismiss as noise.  But I'd request that you pick your battles.  Getting angry at Dan is JUST what he wants, it gives him an excuse to spew more poison.  And quite frankly, I don't think he really cares, except to see how excited he can make you.

There's really no point to play that game.  Not with Dan.  That's all I'm saying.
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
July 4th, 2007 11:37pm
"how about those Palestinians killed by your fucking Israeli friends and families huh?"

They brought it on themselves. I blame the victims.

You take your foot off of their necks, they'll kill you. Better them than us.

So Colm, you seem sane, seriously, if you are so concerned about the fate of Arabs, do you oppose the oppression of Arabs by Arabs with the same vigor? If not, why not?
Permalink LeftWingPharisee 
July 4th, 2007 11:37pm
>You and the Rachel Corrie types support people who are
>trying to kill my friends and family. I take it personally.

She tried to prevent the demolition of the home of a doctor who is now, IIRC, living freely in the US.

Couldn't be more evil, really.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 4th, 2007 11:38pm
Oh, I know that I'm not going to change his mind. Occasionally it's fun to poke the pig, but that's not really why I responded here. Denman is a bizarre individual, that's for sure.

There is a semi-respectable movement to boycott Israel that is really just stealth anti-Semitism (unless they are holding Israel to a higher standard, which they will never admit to). That's what I'm responding to.

Whether I'm successful at it, that's another question.

BTW, all Jews today are Pharisees. There's no other brand left.
Permalink LeftWingPharisee 
July 4th, 2007 11:43pm
>So Colm, you seem sane

Thank you. I wish I could make the same claim about you, but you seem intent on proving otherwise.

>seriously, if you are so concerned about the fate of Arabs,
>do you oppose the oppression of Arabs by Arabs with the
>same vigor?

I would consider the problem of Arabs by Arabs as symptomatic of a broader problem caused initially by the foundation of Israel, the expulsion of Arabs from their land and the subsequent occupation of Palestinian land.

Like I said before: it don't matter who you coop up together - they will turn on each other. This happens in Jewish Ghettos (did you blame the high number of deaths in them principally on the Jews? Thought not.), the Gaza strip and prisons everywhere.

The people with the power to change the situation... well, that would be the American and Israeli governments. I'm going to be concerned with them for the time being thank you VERY much.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 4th, 2007 11:44pm
>>You and the Rachel Corrie types support people who are
>>trying to kill my friends and family. I take it personally.

>She tried to prevent the demolition of the home of a doctor >who is now, IIRC, living freely in the US.

>Couldn't be more evil, really.

Actually, he was sheltering a tunnel to ship weapons. He got what he deserved.
Permalink LeftWingPharisee 
July 4th, 2007 11:45pm
Yeah, I read up on the Rachael Corrie thing.  Pretty messed up.  It's hard to know what the real truth is there, it's been spun so hard by the propaganda machine.

One version says that she stood in the path of a bull-dozer -- a three-story tall bulldozer, the kind used to push down the houses of Palestinian bombers.  The Israeli operator pushed her down.

Where exactly this happened is up for debate.  Why he did that can open all kinds of arguments.  How injured she was by being pushed down is unclear.

I believe she was put into a Palestinian ambulance and taken to a Palestinian hospital.  By the time she got there, she was dead.

This was a very sweet, but completely misguided young lady (17?  Something like that) who'se Christian religious convictions led her (actually, a small group) to Gaza to try to prevent the Israeli's from knocking down the homes of terrorists.  She was convinced of the rightness of her actions, but this was like trying to separate two fighting dogs.  When you do that, which dog gives you the fatal bite is hard to tell.

She's been a propaganda token ever since.  Again, once the truth is lost, and the propaganda machine begins its spin, it's really hard to tell the truth any more.
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
July 4th, 2007 11:46pm
"There is a semi-respectable movement to boycott Israel that is really just stealth anti-Semitism "

There we again anti semitism. What the fuck? what's it with you people and your zero self-esteem huh?

Definition of anti semitism: criticism of Israel.

Dude, those days were over that you could silence people by labeling them antisemitism. Get on the program.
Permalink Dan Denman 
July 4th, 2007 11:47pm
>stealth anti-Semitism

You see, when you use phrases like that you really mark yourself out as a crazy insane person who believes in conspiracy theories.

Anti-arabism, OTOH, (the real stuff, not this "stealth" bullshit) is alive and well in the US and especially in Israel.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 4th, 2007 11:47pm
antisemitism label these days is as effective as labeling someone with weak on terrorism. Don't mean nothing!
Permalink Dan Denman 
July 4th, 2007 11:50pm
>This was a very sweet, but completely misguided young lady
>(17?  Something like that) who'se Christian religious
>convictions led her (actually, a small group) to Gaza to
>try to prevent the Israeli's from knocking down the homes
>of terrorists.

They weren't knocking down the home of a terrorist. They found no weapons, no tunnels, no ANYTHING. This sweet misguided lady was protecting the home of a non-terrorist Arab - or "innocent" person as I like to refer to them (you may disagree).
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 4th, 2007 11:51pm
"I would consider the problem of Arabs by Arabs as symptomatic of a broader problem caused initially by the foundation of Israel, the expulsion of Arabs from their land and the subsequent occupation of Palestinian land."

How is the Iraqi violence related to the Land between the Jordan and the Sea? Or the Sinaitic problem? Or the Berbers, or the Algerian fratricide? Darfur? Israel mainly serves as an excuse for Arabs to avoid facing their own problems.

"Like I said before: it don't matter who you coop up together - they will turn on each other. This happens in Jewish Ghettos (did you blame the high number of deaths in them principally on the Jews? Thought not.), the Gaza strip and prisons everywhere."

Agreed.

"The people with the power to change the situation... well, that would be the American and Israeli governments. I'm going to be concerned with them for the time being thank you VERY much."

The Palestinians have had and currently have much more power to change things than you think. They have never accepted the 1948 Nakba and apparently never will. The 2002 Intifada made that clear, as well as the documents taken from Arafat's bunker.

I'm very sane, don't worry. It's just that there's no hope for peace, and there are crazies who want to kill my people. Makes me upset.
Permalink LeftWingPharisee 
July 4th, 2007 11:52pm
Yeah, that's part of "where this happened is up for debate".  Reports that I've seen differ as to where it happened.

Nonetheless, HER PURPOSE in being in Palestine WAS to prevent houses being knocked down.  That's definitely true.  What exactly was going on when she was injured, I didn't say.
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
July 4th, 2007 11:54pm
The reason why I call it "stealth anti-Semitism" is because it holds Israel and Jews to an impossible standard without admitting such, thus giving license to say awful things.

OK, call it something else.
Permalink LeftWingPharisee 
July 4th, 2007 11:56pm
not to defend dan...god forbid...but he has said nothing about the jewish people, his target in this thread appears to be the nation state of israel.

how, exactly, is it anti-jewish to be calling for a boycott of a nation state?



incidentally he hates america about as much, and continuously calls us worthless bottom feeders.  we dont moderate that stuff either*


* except when it gets tedious after a bunch in a row, but that is about quantity not content.
Permalink worldsSmallestViolin 
July 4th, 2007 11:57pm
In other threads, he explicitly denigrates Jews as people (not their culture).
Permalink LeftWingPharisee 
July 4th, 2007 11:59pm
When you're justification for boycotting a nation-state is that it's a "fucking zionist" nation state.

Don't you find that the least bit anti-semitic?
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
July 5th, 2007 12:00am
"The reason why I call it "stealth anti-Semitism" is because it holds Israel and Jews to an impossible standard without admitting such, thus giving license to say awful things. "

Backpedaling are we? it's convenient for the supporter of Israel to dismiss any criticism as anti-semitism.

Tired of this shit.

Israel has to be dealt with and Hamas will deal with it.
Permalink Dan Denman 
July 5th, 2007 12:00am
Allan

Go stuff yourself, will ya?
Permalink Dan Denman 
July 5th, 2007 12:01am
No, I don't think they will.  If you thought they would, you wouldn't be calling for a boycott.
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
July 5th, 2007 12:01am
Right.  Sorry Dan, I got pulled into this one.
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
July 5th, 2007 12:02am
Baby steps ... baby steps.

Next targe is reclaiming Jerusalem. Mark my words.
Permalink Dan Denman 
July 5th, 2007 12:02am
>How is the Iraqi violence related to the Land between the
>Jordan and the Sea? Or the Sinaitic problem? Or the Berbers,
>or the Algerian fratricide? Darfur? Israel mainly serves as
>an excuse for Arabs to avoid facing their own problems.

Oh the other stuff? Well, if you want to follow that argumentative route Europeans are every bit as violent. We're just more efficient. We had two global wars (which is partly the reason why the area is unstable today).

>The Palestinians have had and currently have much more
>power to change things than you think. They have never
>accepted the 1948 Nakba and apparently never will.

Running away from danger in apparently translates to "running away out of spite" in Hebrew.

>2002 Intifada made that clear, as well as the documents
>taken from Arafat's bunker.

Frankly the entire state should never have been created. That's a mistake that the Israeli govt. would never dare admit to though.

>I'm very sane, don't worry. It's just that there's no
>hope for peace, and there are crazies who want to kill
>my people. Makes me upset.

You ought to be more worried about the crazies among your people, who actually kill more people. You have a hope in hell of convincing them, and THEY'RE the ones with the power to make a change.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 5th, 2007 12:03am
"No, I don't think they will.  If you thought they would, you wouldn't be calling for a boycott."

Shock and awe?
Permalink Dan Denman 
July 5th, 2007 12:04am
>Reports that I've seen differ as to where it happened.

Differ to what I've said?

>Nonetheless, HER PURPOSE in being in Palestine WAS to
>prevent houses being knocked down.  That's definitely true. >What exactly was going on when she was injured, I didn't
>say.

You said she was there defending terrorists' houses. I had hoped that her death in the demolition of a pretty obviously non-terrorist house might lead you to believe that she wasn't there to defend terrorists, but rather people. Of the ordinary innocent kind.

Hey, I can hope.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 5th, 2007 12:06am
When you type boycott google desktop suggests boycott Israel. Doesn't that tell you something? It tells you how Israel is despised globally.
Permalink Dan Denman 
July 5th, 2007 12:07am
>When you're justification for boycotting a nation-state is
>that it's a "fucking zionist" nation state.
>Don't you find that the least bit anti-semitic?

By definition it's not, actually.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 5th, 2007 12:07am
"In other threads, he explicitly denigrates Jews as people (not their culture)."

<shrug> in other threads he has specifically called me a bottle backending faggot.  Ive always assumed he meant that as a denigrative label.

he has also, in my memory, been mean to (and about!) the french, all americans, europe and most of asia.

If he has denigrated the jewish people, they are in good company.


"When you're justification for boycotting a nation-state is that it's a "fucking zionist" nation state.

Don't you find that the least bit anti-semitic?"

I dont know.  In my mind the term 'zionist' refers to a specific subset of the jewish (israeli?) people who believe that Israel is entitled by right to a whole bunch of stuff, including the love of their god.

Im not sure if there are other definitions?

so calling Israel a 'fucking zionist' state seems more a dig at the ruling party than it does at the jewish people?


"The reason why I call it "stealth anti-Semitism" is because it holds Israel and Jews to an impossible standard without admitting such, thus giving license to say awful things. "

which are the things that you believe represent an impossible standard?  was not invading lebanon impossible?  is giving your palestinian prisoners a fair trial and releasing them if you are unable to prove guilt impossible?  is giving up your occupied land impossible?

what, exactly, are you being asked to do that is impossible?


"Israel has to be dealt with and Hamas will deal with it."

meh.  they wont 'deal with' each other. they'll just keep fighting like idiots for the next 100 generations or until someone persuades them to stop treating each other like animals.

hence the boycott.
Permalink worldsSmallestViolin 
July 5th, 2007 12:09am
Another great site with list of products and goods from Israel:

http://www.bigcampaign.org.uk/

"Time to hesitate is through"

--JM
Permalink Dan Denman 
July 5th, 2007 12:09am
Actually, Colm, that's a very good point.  SHE went to defend people, true.  Her purpose was not to find some terrorists and then defend them, but to defend people she saw as innocent.  My own 'spin machine' went out of control there -- thanks for the correction.
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
July 5th, 2007 12:11am
"thanks for the correction."

Don't talk like that you'll be labeled as Islamist. Don't admit any wrong doing on Israelis part! NEVER, EVER!
Permalink Dan Denman 
July 5th, 2007 12:12am
stay away from anything that's sold on this page:

http://www.israeliproducts.com/
Permalink Dan Denman 
July 5th, 2007 12:21am
"If this cock sucker spoke about African Americans the way he spews about Jews, how long would he last here?"

Good point - not long, I suspect.

"But your idiotic, pathological obsession with Jews"

To put it mildly.

Dan Denman = all-anti-Semitism, all the time.
Permalink man on the stoop 
July 5th, 2007 12:30am
>>How is the Iraqi violence related to the Land between the
>>Jordan and the Sea? Or the Sinaitic problem? Or the Berbers,
>>or the Algerian fratricide? Darfur? Israel mainly serves as
>>an excuse for Arabs to avoid facing their own problems.

>Oh the other stuff? Well, if you want to follow that argumentative route Europeans are every bit as violent. We're just more efficient. We had two global wars (which is partly the reason why the area is unstable today).

You avoided the question. Yes, Europeans and Americans are every bit as violent, but that's besides the point. Do you have a direct answer for my question?

>>The Palestinians have had and currently have much more
>>power to change things than you think. They have never
>>accepted the 1948 Nakba and apparently never will.

>Running away from danger in apparently translates to "running away out of spite" in Hebrew.

Don't forget that the Zionist project didn't start in 1948. Don't forget about the 1929 and 1936-9 intifadas. The Jews knew full well what would happen to them should the Arabs have won more than they did. For example, look what they did to the Jewish parts of Jerusalem that they controlled from 1949 to 1967.

For me, it was the image of a man in a tower holding up his hands red with a Jew's blood, to the raucous cheers of the throngs below, that ended their humanity to me. That's what would happen if the Israelis ever took their foot off their necks.

>>2002 Intifada made that clear, as well as the documents
>>taken from Arafat's bunker.

>Frankly the entire state should never have been created. That's a mistake that the Israeli govt. would never dare admit to though.

That's your opinion, which you're entitled to of course. Then again, look at the condition of the Welsh, who I believe were the aboriginal Celtic population; they're herded into a remote, hilly sliver of the island. To this day they're (in the words of a pub owner) "shunned". The creation of the UK was also a mistake, but try to get Parliament to admit that.

>>I'm very sane, don't worry. It's just that there's no
>hope for peace, and there are crazies who want to kill
>my people. Makes me upset.

>You ought to be more worried about the crazies among your people, who actually kill more people. You have a hope in hell of convincing them, and THEY'RE the ones with the power to make a change.

The suicide bombers killed a lot of civilians. They're very effective weapons.

Of course, Israel has made many terrible mistakes, I'm not saying otherwise. The Lebanon fiasco was horrible, for example. But at the end of the day, it comes down to an existential question.
Permalink LeftWingPharisee 
July 5th, 2007 6:37am
>You avoided the question. Yes, Europeans and Americans are every bit as violent, but that's besides the point. Do you have a direct answer for my question?

The answer is "I don't know", and "besides, it's probably irrelevant to the Palestinian issue (which is what I was referring to anyway when I said Arabs)"

>That's your opinion, which you're entitled to of course.

If I'M entitled to this opinion why aren't the Palestinians?

Their non-recognition of the state of Israel is equivalent to my opinion.

>Don't forget that the Zionist project didn't start in 1948.

I didn't. That's just when it got violent, and running away from the violence was interpreted as a sign that they didn't want their homes by Israeli historians with a straight face.

>For me, it was the image of a man in a tower holding up his hands red with a Jew's blood

Glad to see you're so emotionally driven. It means you're far more likely to hold rational opinions.

>The suicide bombers killed a lot of civilians. They're very effective weapons.

The IDF killed more. They're even more effective.

If you want a moral equivalency (i.e. not to argue over whether a civvie is a civvie or a terrorist) let's just count the children.

Palestinian suicide bombers kill fewer Israeli children than the IDF kill Palestinian children.

>But at the end of the day, it comes down to an existential question.

Nobody has the power to threaten Israel's existence.

Every country in the world that tries to justify its military expenditure and operations tries to frame the threat as existential. The US (nobody is a fucking threat to them), Germany in WW2, Japan in WW2 and so on.

Really, it's about two groups of people being shitty towards one another and the power center of ONE of those groups having the power to change things while the other group remains pretty much helpless.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 5th, 2007 7:04am
>The answer is "I don't know", and "besides, it's probably irrelevant to the Palestinian issue (which is what I was referring to anyway when I said Arabs)"

You don't know? What kind of BS is that? My question to you is, since you are so concerned about the oppression of Arabs (which is a good thing), why are you so selective in your concern? That is the stealth anti-semitism of which I wrote of when too tired last night.

I really don't think that it is because you hold Jews to a higher standard, though that is the net effect of your selective outrage. If you do indeed hold Jews to a higher standard, well, kol haKavod, that'd be great.

It's similar to the concern about the oppression of black Africans by white Africans that was very chic in certain circles before Mandela came to power. The oppression of black Africans by black Africans was pretty much ignored and is to this day (with the exception of Darfur, which has become chic). That was stealth racism.

The difference is that the West doesn't really give a shit about Africa, while it cares very much about Israel. Therefore, they indulged the dilettantes marching against Apartheid but come down hard on them when they prattle on about Israel.

>If I'M entitled to this opinion why aren't the Palestinians?

Of course they are.

>>Don't forget that the Zionist project didn't start in 1948.

>I didn't. That's just when it got violent, and running away from the violence was interpreted as a sign that they didn't want their homes by Israeli historians with a straight face.

It got violent before 1948, except it was Arabs killing Jews. In 1929, for example, Arab rioting killed 67 and left Chevron Judenrein.

As far as the stupid story Israelis told themselves, you're right. The Zionists wanted to be a nation-state like all the others (why, can't tell you); all nation-states start this way.

>>For me, it was the image of a man in a tower holding up his hands red with a Jew's blood

>Glad to see you're so emotionally driven. It means you're far more likely to hold rational opinions.

Rational means driven by reason. Reason is a process based on emotions. Resentment and anger at people who want to kill me and my family and friends is rational.

>>The suicide bombers killed a lot of civilians. They're very effective weapons.

>The IDF killed more. They're even more effective.

>If you want a moral equivalency (i.e. not to argue over whether a civvie is a civvie or a terrorist) let's just count the children.

>Palestinian suicide bombers kill fewer Israeli children than the IDF kill Palestinian children.

The suicide bombers target civilians. The IDF usually tries to avoid killing civilians. Big difference. The IDF doesn't put artillery in hospitals, for example.

Is the IDF perfect? Of course not.

>>But at the end of the day, it comes down to an existential question.

>Nobody has the power to threaten Israel's existence.

That's where you're wrong. The suicide bombers are indeed an existential threat. Look at bin Laden. His plan to destroy the US is working very well, and all he had were guys with box cutters.

>Every country in the world that tries to justify its military expenditure and operations tries to frame the threat as existential. The US (nobody is a fucking threat to them), Germany in WW2, Japan in WW2 and so on.

Agreed.

>Really, it's about two groups of people being shitty towards one another and the power center of ONE of those groups having the power to change things while the other group remains pretty much helpless.

That's what I'm saying--that the Palestinians are not as helpless as you portray them. They've had lots of opportunities in the past to make peace. At the end of the day, they believe that Tel Aviv, Rehovot, Haifa, Eilat, et. al. are occupied Arab territory.
Permalink LeftWingPharisee 
July 5th, 2007 7:40am
" If you do indeed hold Jews to a higher standard, well, kol haKavod, that'd be great. "


I (would like to) hold _israel_ to a higher standard than I hold hamas.  this is because israel is a 'democratic' nation state and hamas is a terrorist organisation.

"His plan to destroy the US is working very well, and all he had were guys with box cutters. "

huh?  the US is nearly destroyed and its _bin ladens_ fault?  I think perhaps you are giving him a little too much credit.
Permalink worldsSmallestViolin 
July 5th, 2007 8:00am
>That's what I'm saying--that the Palestinians are not as
>helpless as you portray them.

Who holds the power? Who controls the land? The borders? The ports? The sea? The water? The checkpoints?

Israelis hold ALL the cards.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 5th, 2007 9:12am
Well, apparently NOW Israel holds all the cards, since Israeli citizens are no longer being killed in terrorist attacks.

Though I might mention, there are still daily rocket attacks from Gaza into Israel. 

One might say that the US holds all the cards with regard to Mexico, too.  I'd assert though that if a Mexican religious group was firing rockets daily into Texas (which some say was stolen from Mexico) you wouldn't be defending the Mexicans in that situation.
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
July 5th, 2007 9:17am
>They've had lots of opportunities in the past to make peace.

The Israeli government has offered several really shitty deals (which involved giving up 30% of the occupied territory, water resources, East Jerusalem and making the border totally uncontiguous).

>At the end of the day, they believe that Tel Aviv, Rehovot,
>Haifa, Eilat, et. al. are occupied Arab territory.

There is no good reason why they should be considered "Jewish" land, yet Palestinians accepting this irrational notion (recognizing the Jewish state) is considered the main barrier to peace.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 5th, 2007 9:23am
>Well, apparently NOW Israel holds all the cards, since
>Israeli citizens are no longer being killed in terrorist
>attacks.

Well, yeah. Israel can choke checkpoints, cut back delivery of aid, deploy troops, bulldoze homes and make Palestinian life utterly miserable.

What can the Palestinians do to fight back?

>Though I might mention, there are still daily rocket
>attacks from Gaza into Israel.

And?

>One might say that the US holds all the cards with
>regard to Mexico, too.

This is pretty irrelevant.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 5th, 2007 9:25am
>I (would like to) hold _israel_ to a higher standard than I hold hamas.  this is because israel is a 'democratic' nation state and hamas is a terrorist organisation.

That's fine. I do too, for different reasons. Blast away, then.

>>"His plan to destroy the US is working very well, and all he had were guys with box cutters. "

>huh?  the US is nearly destroyed and its _bin ladens_ fault?  I think perhaps you are giving him a little too much credit.

He gave Bush and Cheney the tools and opportunity to destroy us.
Permalink LeftWingPharisee 
July 5th, 2007 9:28am
"Who holds the power? Who controls the land? The borders? The ports? The sea? The water? The checkpoints?

Israelis hold ALL the cards."

Bullshit. Tell that to the people at Sbarro's, et. al., who were blown to pieces by these powerless weaklings.

Pray tell, how does one defend against suicide bombers? Pass strongly worded resolutions, write editorials, march in angry protest? Boycott their products?

And as for the Qassams targeting Sderot, Israel's been very restrained so far. If Mexicans intent on taking back Texas started bombing El Paso, we'd firebomb them, then plow the land with salt.
Permalink LeftWingPharisee 
July 5th, 2007 9:38am
Hey, this is a democracy.  9/11 happened in 2001 -- yet we reelected Bush/Cheney in 2004.

AND we haven't caught Bin Laden in all that time -- and Bin Laden wasn't Iraqi.

I don't think we can (or should) lay Iraq at Bin Laden's feet.
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
July 5th, 2007 9:39am
"The Israeli government has offered several really shitty deals (which involved giving up 30% of the occupied territory, water resources, East Jerusalem and making the border totally uncontiguous)."

As time goes by, the deals keep getting shittier and shittier. I wonder if they notice the pattern.

There is no hope for peace. What Jew in his right mind would give back Jerusalem to the people who very thoroughly desecrated it when they had the chance (and continue to this day, at the Temple Mount)?

And the chances of the Palestinian Diaspora returning to their homes? C'mon, get real.
Permalink LeftWingPharisee 
July 5th, 2007 9:40am
"I don't think we can (or should) lay Iraq at Bin Laden's feet."

You have a point. However, it can be fairly said that he didn't help anything.
Permalink LeftWingPharisee 
July 5th, 2007 9:43am
>As time goes by, the deals keep getting shittier and
>shittier. I wonder if they notice the pattern.

Not always. Terrorism actually works (that may be a politically incorrect thing to say, but it's true).

Besides, if the Israeli govt. wanted peace (doubtful, they are often held in their position because they are seen as tough on terrorism or due to the extremists holding greater sway in the Knesset) they'd actually offer some decent deals that would involve giving up power, resources and border control.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 5th, 2007 9:59am
>There is no hope for peace. What Jew in his right mind
>would give back Jerusalem to the people who very
>thoroughly desecrated it when they had the chance (and
>continue to this day, at the Temple Mount)?

See - now the real racism shines through. This is the real, and true reason why there will never be peace in the Middle East. It's not due to suicide bombings (by people with no real power other than the power to blow themselves up), it's not Arabs killing each other, it's not Palestinians firing rockets, it's racist Zionists who refuse to budge one inch in the name of peace.

>And the chances of the Palestinian Diaspora returning to
>their homes? C'mon, get real.

Ditto. For the real cause of the continuing conflict, look inward.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 5th, 2007 10:01am
>>There is no hope for peace. What Jew in his right mind
>>would give back Jerusalem to the people who very
>>thoroughly desecrated it when they had the chance (and
>>continue to this day, at the Temple Mount)?

>See - now the real racism shines through. This is the real, and true reason why there will never be peace in the Middle East. It's not due to suicide bombings (by people with no real power other than the power to blow themselves up), it's not Arabs killing each other, it's not Palestinians firing rockets, it's racist Zionists who refuse to budge one inch in the name of peace.

Bullshit. Have you examined the conduct of the Jordanians in East Jerusalem from 1949 to 1967? Or of the Waqf today?

Well, the one success of the Intifada II has been to totally destroy the Israeli peace movement by completely validating the points of the hard right. As Benny Morris said (a "heretical" Israeli historian who refused to serve during Intifada I), you can be discussing the legitimate grievances of the Palestinians in a cafe and get blown up just the same.

And how are these "racist Zionists" involved with the Sunni-Shia bloodbath in Iraq? Or in Algeria? Or the Spanish Sahara? Or Sudan? Or the Sinai? You never answered my question, why the selective outrage?

The real and true reason why there will never be peace in the part of the world is because Arab culture puts such a tremendous emphasis on revenge. Should that change at some point, then there would be hope.
Permalink LeftWingPharisee 
July 5th, 2007 10:38am
We now know that LWP is a racist scumbag, who thinks only the goyim have to follow international law, because he belongs to the chosen people who are above such mundanities.
Permalink Send private email Stephen Jones 
July 5th, 2007 12:17pm
Well, that was very cogent and well thought out. Pray tell, tell me who the fuck does follow international law? Who among Israels neighbors does?

Why don't you take the challenge I put in another thread.

Of course, if you do hold Jews to a higher standard, then I'm cool with that.
Permalink LeftWingPharisee 
July 5th, 2007 1:21pm
>Pray tell, tell me who the fuck does follow international
>law?

I think Iraq was invaded under the pretext that they violated international law, even though they violated something like two or three whereas Israel is in the 30s.

>Who among Israels neighbors does?

Why do you believe that having worse neighbors excuses Israel, even supposing that they WERE worse?
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 5th, 2007 1:42pm
"Why do you believe that having worse neighbors excuses Israel, even supposing that they WERE worse?"

I don't. I'm just using it to show that you're a hypocritical dilettante.

BTW, her neighbors are worse.
Permalink LeftWingPharisee 
July 5th, 2007 2:19pm
>I don't.

You're continually trying to skew the discussion towards unrelated Arabs in unrelated situations, as if they were related.

>I'm just using it to show that you're a hypocritical
>dilettante.

The fact that people don't get worked up to a level about calamities in proportion to the severity of the calamity doesn't make them hypocrites.

Believing one thing (or stating belief in one thing) and doing another - that's hypocrisy. You misunderstand the meaning of the word.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 6th, 2007 8:34am
"The fact that people don't get worked up to a level about calamities in proportion to the severity of the calamity doesn't make them hypocrites."

Uh, yes it does.

You're a hypocrite in that you pretend to be concerned about oppression of Arabs, when in fact you are only concerned with a small subset of that oppression.

I don't know why you focus on the Zionist issue, or why you're so concerned with Arab oppression, as opposed to African, or South American, or whatever. It just doesn't really have anything to do with Arabs, per se.
Permalink LeftWingPharisee 
July 6th, 2007 9:27am
>You're a hypocrite in that you pretend to be concerned
>about oppression of Arabs,

I'm not pretending. I am concerned.

>when in fact you are only concerned with a small subset of
>that oppression.

I'm not concerned with a small subset. When I used to work with Saudis (quite a few), I made my concerns about their horrible system and their abuse of women just as clear as I made my concerns about abuse of Palestinians to you now.

>I don't know why you focus on the Zionist issue,

Currently, because somebody started a thread about it and I jumped in to correct some stupid idiots making stupid remarks. You were one of them...

>or why you're so concerned with Arab oppression, as
>opposed to African, or South American, or whatever. It
>just doesn't really have anything to do with Arabs, per
>se.

Ah, so what is it?
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 6th, 2007 7:25pm

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