Sanding our assholes with 150 grit. Slowly. Lovingly.

the thing that truly infuriates me about AG and her privacy is..

that she seems to clueless about it.

I can understand and respect people like muppet and sharky.  they are putting their information out there, they understand the possible consequences and are happy to deal with them if required.

I can understand and respect people like myself....I understand the possible consequences and dont have any desire to deal with them, so I cover every personal detail and personal contact in layer after layer of misdirection and subterfuge.  and if I do ultimately make a mistake, I accept that is the likely consequence of posting at all and accept that I may have to deal with consequences despite my attempt to be careful.


but AG appears to be so clueless as to what constitutes personal privacy, so utterly surprised at how often she is bitten by her own breaches and so downright indignant about the consequences that...well...I just get infuriated.

shes presumably not stupid, she appears to be successfully leading a life.  she hasn't accidentally brained herself with the kitchen beaters.....how can she manage all that and yet be unaware that the internet is full of insane crazies who, once they notice you, will seize upon any opportunity to invade your personal life and drag themselves into your attention span?

grrr.
Permalink Send private email zestyZucchini 
July 9th, 2007 8:44am
>successfully leading a life

For *some* definition of success...
Permalink Send private email muppet 
July 9th, 2007 8:47am
I suppose by "successfully leading a life" you mean "she's not dead".
Permalink Send private email muppet 
July 9th, 2007 8:47am
well, not dead.  doesn't appear to be missing any limbs (thanks for sending those vids btw AG) and so forth.

lets face it, Im not really in a position to judge..
Permalink Send private email zestyZucchini 
July 9th, 2007 8:49am
It's called naivety. It's a valuable personality asset that allows you to see and strive for improvement when everybody else has given up and decayed into cynical acidic bastards. Try it.
Permalink Send private email Locutus of Borg 
July 9th, 2007 8:50am
I can certainly strive for improvement without whining and crying about the need for it in the meantime.
Permalink Send private email muppet 
July 9th, 2007 8:51am
hey, Im down with striving for improvement.  b

ut maybe attempting to reform every asshole on the internet in one fell swoop is a little much to start with?

I guess Im not someone who sees much virtue in naivety.
Permalink Send private email zestyZucchini 
July 9th, 2007 8:52am
so you can only strive for improvement if your naive?

haha, this place just gets better and better
Permalink what are you reading for? 
July 9th, 2007 8:54am
> "so you can only strive for improvement if your naive?"

I see that logic and rationality is wated on you. Too bad.
Permalink Send private email Locutus of Borg 
July 9th, 2007 8:56am
You seem to have suffered a stroke there.  Calmly call an ambulance.
Permalink Send private email muppet 
July 9th, 2007 8:57am
"I see that logic and rationality is wated on you. Too bad"

You're right, thats why I asked the question
Permalink what are you reading for? 
July 9th, 2007 8:59am
Is it true that there is currently an acute ovine shortage on that rash across the arse-end of the world? Generally, the resident enzedder would be pleasuring himself in other amusing ways. Perhaps the caprine stock is not good enough for him. Of course, there is no such possibilities for the resident stuffed sock, so there is no other recourse but for him to throw feces around. Nevertheless, a laudable effort by both to ensure sufficient actvity in response to the cache-control attribute.
Permalink Send private email Plus ça change 
July 9th, 2007 9:09am
ok, I think I got all that except for the last bit:

"in response to the cache-control attribute."

cache-control attribute?  that reference is escaping me.

nice post btw.
Permalink Send private email zestyZucchini 
July 9th, 2007 9:11am
I'm not complaining about my privacy being violated.

I'm complaining that when a regular poster here is intentionally abusive, instead of denouncing him, some people praise and encourage him.

Yes, sickos on the internet are going to act like sickos.  Should we welcome them with open arms in the interest of having a "stimulating" forum?
Permalink AMerrickanGirl 
July 9th, 2007 9:14am
Yes.
Permalink Send private email muppet 
July 9th, 2007 9:16am
Muppet, hHow sick or destructive would someone have to be before you would change your mind?
Permalink AMerrickanGirl 
July 9th, 2007 9:17am
They'd have to actually make credible threats against your person or your family.
Permalink Send private email muppet 
July 9th, 2007 9:19am
Well, I know that has happened to you.  Which definitely sucks.

I'm just thinking that approving of assholish behavior may just encourage the kind of people who tried to hurt you.  The less we egg them on, the more they'll seek out forums that provide them with an audience.

It's a slippery slope.
Permalink AMerrickanGirl 
July 9th, 2007 9:21am
>> cache-control attribute?  that reference is escaping me.

My bad. The docs say cache-control tag. You know, dead page, F5 doing nothing to pixel arrangements and all that.

>> nice post btw.

Thanks.
Permalink Send private email Plus ça change 
July 9th, 2007 9:23am
It's not a slippery slope.  Most internet assholes are called "internet" assholes for a reason.

I'm the only one here who has ever actually been physically threatened, and I'm all for letting these guys post almost whatever they want.
Permalink Send private email muppet 
July 9th, 2007 9:23am
WTF - is circlejerk.whispersinthedark.com down?
Permalink Send private email Philo 
July 9th, 2007 9:40am
Exactly, its just a forum with a bit of banter
Permalink what are you reading for? 
July 9th, 2007 9:41am
Philo -

I'll get that up for you ASAP.
Permalink Send private email muppet 
July 9th, 2007 9:44am
fnarr fnarr.
Permalink heroin addicted ari$--tocrat 
July 9th, 2007 9:45am
"so I cover every personal detail and personal contact in layer after layer of misdirection and subterfuge"

I am the same way.  Provide only enough to confuse you.  I dont mind giving out my real name, what city I live in (or fine the google map where I live).  But after that I try to cover up.

Actually, I think it may matter more to people with more to lose.  Also, what info did AG give up that most of us couldnt find on some online internet phonebook or something similar anyway.
Permalink Bot Berlin 
July 9th, 2007 11:25am
>I dont mind giving out my real name, what city I live in (or fine the google map where I live).  But after that I try to cover up.

Heh...is this paragraph written tongue in cheek? I hope so.

"Beyond giving you absolutely everything...I'm a very private person!"

>Actually, I think it may matter more to people with more to lose.

Sure...

I can find the address (and, with ease, the phone number) of any business leader, politician, and even music or film star for that matter.

Newspaper columnists -- a group that pisses off hundreds of thousands of people with regularity -- print their faces and names, and are easily traceable. And they also have far more of a loudspeaker than any of us, so someone who wants to make them pay is probably far more motivated than some email sending jackass on an internet forum.

The whole anonymity thing is the domain of the chronically paranoid and the self-important.

Yes, hide those details because EVERYONE IS OUT TO GET YOU.

Bah.

And for the record I resort to "DF" now because this board is so, for lack of a better word, cowardly, that using a real name just seemed, sadly, pretentious. Better to hide behind pseudonyms and imagine that there's a vast cabal that is seeking me out for my brilliant opinions that threaten their empire.
Permalink DF 
July 9th, 2007 11:44am
Personally, I take the Philip Greenspun approach ...

For many years, my home address was on my blog. Why?

If anyone really wanted to look me up, they probably could.

Why is it not on there anymore? Well, I don't update my blog any more.

Heck, even my facebook profile has my mobile number too.

The funny thing is, I am a loud person, but also very private. I have found out it is easier to be loud and yet say nothing, than it is to be quiet.

One of my ex-girlfriends complaints was that she never really thought she knew me, despite being one of the most talkative people she knew.

Loud and brash people are some of the most private people I know.
Permalink Send private email Tapiwa 
July 9th, 2007 12:06pm
Yeah, I'm pretty privet.
Permalink Send private email muppet 
July 9th, 2007 12:09pm
"The funny thing is, I am a loud person, but also very private. I have found out it is easier to be loud and yet say nothing, than it is to be quiet."

I did have my phone number online/email with my resume and that was brutal.  Still get about 3 calls a day from them. It has pretty much left me to only answer my cellphone (which I rarely give out).  But then again, I know they aren't going to attack me or anything so when I make the mistake of answering my landline, it is normally this, "Are you Berlin Brown?  I am with blah,blah,blah recruiter.  Are you looking for a job" ... no...click.
Permalink Bot Berlin 
July 9th, 2007 2:17pm
"Yes, hide those details because EVERYONE IS OUT TO GET YOU. "


heh.  unfortunately it only takes one person in the whole of the interforums to be out to get you to make you wish you had private data.

your point is a good one though, if I were a politician or a reporter I would _want_ people to know who I was, and there would be a big upside if everyone knew.

..the difference between them and me being that Im neither a politician or a reportem and so there is no upside..

besides, as AG has discovered, just cause you aren't paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't out to get you.

overall, Im happy with the paranoid label, althogh self-important clearly fits nicely as well...
Permalink Send private email zestyZucchini 
July 9th, 2007 2:27pm
>..the difference between them and me being that Im neither a politician or a reporter and so there is no upside..

Reasonable enough.

Nonetheless, it is because of such cowardice -- everyone worried about a vanishingly unlikely event -- that the personal info attack ninjas think they have any pull at all: Once they grasp onto some banal, useless piece of personal info, it's given sway only because everyone pretends that it has significance.

The whole risk thing is just so grossly overblown. I still have boredomemares about that whole fiasco a while back where the female blogger felt "threatened" because some asshats put up some photoshops.

Give me a fucking break.

You're astronomically more likely to regret human reactions in real life, where any random guy who thinks you cut him off can murderize you with ease.
Permalink DF 
July 9th, 2007 2:53pm
"You're astronomically more likely to regret human reactions in real life, where any random guy who thinks you cut him off can murderize you with ease."

Exactly.  It is a numbers game.

I know we probably don't worry about getting targeted by some Internet assassin.  I do feel, we could be embarrassed with our friends or family by someones cruel joke.  That is probably more likely.
Permalink Bot Berlin 
July 9th, 2007 2:58pm
The problem with the Internet is persistence. The fear of a quote or behaviour coming back to haunt you is very real. In real life, say, road rage, it is far more dangerous. Agreed. But more often than not it passes. Even heated debates or cringe worthy statements, in real life, can be denied. No so with the Net. The Net has taken record keeping to its logical conclusion and that scares, and should scare, a lot of us.
Permalink Send private email (100+85)/2 
July 9th, 2007 3:08pm
It's interesting that the most fearless individuals regarding private data seem to be men -- at least, taking this thread as an example.

I think this might be related to the idea that the real crazies (the violent, sexual predator kind) tend to be male, and that their victims tend to be female.

So I'm glad you're able to be so brave, and look down on AG's fears.  What I don't think you realize is you may be asking her to be brave about something you don't have to fear.

Just a thought.
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
July 9th, 2007 3:17pm
SaveTheHubble.

See, I told you, you were smart.
Permalink Bot Berlin 
July 9th, 2007 3:18pm
"it's given sway only because everyone pretends that it has significance. "

I dont agree with that.v  personally identifying information has power because it personally identifies you.

" I still have boredomemares about that whole fiasco a while back where the female blogger felt "threatened" because some asshats put up some photoshops. "

oh, I totally agree.

I _do_ have a non-anonymous online life of course.  its just not mixed with CoT.

The point I was trying to make is simply that revealing - or providing access to - your personally identifying information is a decision _you_ need to make on a case by case basis.
and once you have revealed something, its your fault if it is misused.

"You're astronomically more likely to regret human reactions in real life, where any random guy who thinks you cut him off can murderize you with ease."

its true.

OTOH if there is no gain involved, why take the risk?  I keep many areas of my online life carefully separated from my separate life because Ive seen the problems failing to do so can cause....I agree that they are usually wildly overblown by hysterical, self important twats, but at the same time real problems can occur, so why not inoculate the issue where I can?

..especially given the fact that so many people seem to find my CoT persona a little offensive...
Permalink Send private email zestyZucchini 
July 9th, 2007 3:20pm
A credible worry, but it's exacerbated because so many people subscribe to the anonymous history principal (to invoke Godwin's Law, it's like everyone hiding their religion when the Nazi's started persecuting) -- if there are 10 applicants to a job, and 1 didn't hide behind pseudonyms while 9 did, their history might look unfavorable in comparison, what with the frosh pictures and stupid opinions.

Yet in reality most everyone has stupid holding beer pictures and idiotic things they've posted online. That's the process of learning, gaining wisdom, making mistakes, and so on.

When I evaluate resumes for developers, I flip that on its head (though the standard process of egotistically assuming whatever I've done must be the correct choice): If I find nothing of significance when Googling a candidate, I presume that they either-

a) Are luddite career developers, whose only interaction with the world is in their IDE from 9-5

b) Are so embarrassed by their thoughts and contributions that they've foreven hidden behind pseudonyms.

I'd rather find a little dirt on someone that displays that they're human, with normal frailties.

There is a limit, though. There was the guy who had a personal page full of skulls and vampire stuff. I wouldn't have excluded him if I found it via a Google search, and thus was just a hobby that wasn't pertinent, but he actually gave the link on his resume.
Permalink DF 
July 9th, 2007 3:20pm
"What I don't think you realize is you may be asking her to be brave about something you don't have to fear."

I think the point wSV was trying to make was that if I fear this, I should do a better job of safeguarding myself.

This particular situation isn't frightening me.  It's just pissing me off.
Permalink AMerrickanGirl 
July 9th, 2007 3:21pm
That reply was to (100+85)/2
Permalink DF 
July 9th, 2007 3:21pm
"It's interesting that the most fearless individuals regarding private data seem to be men -- at least, taking this thread as an example. "

huh?  nope. sharky shares her personal info with everyone while I cowardly hide everything.


"So I'm glad you're able to be so brave, and look down on AG's fears."

Im not saying Im brave and her fears are stupid.  Im saying Im smart and her actions are stupid.

I agree with her about privacy, I just solve it by not revealing my personal information.

she apparently thinks that revealing her personal info and then whinging about how it is used is a useful tactic.  I desperately want her to stop thinking that.
Permalink Send private email zestyZucchini 
July 9th, 2007 3:22pm
"she apparently thinks that revealing her personal info and then whinging about how it is used is a useful tactic.  I desperately want her to stop thinking that."

Also, what is personal information?  I think any personal is anything that we don't want to become public and may vary for different people.  I think stuff we consider personal may in fact be public eg.  Here is stuff I try to hide (and may do a bad job)

Public:
Name,
Address,
Hobbies,

Private (just me):
Phone Numbers
Family/Friend Information
Work stuff
Medical Stuff, or really personal stuff (I have a big zit on my ass or something)
Permalink Bot Berlin 
July 9th, 2007 3:27pm
Fair enough, if one has a larger reason for concern, one should take greater care of the data.

Though Sharky is probably not a good example.  First of all, she hasn't participated in this thread yet.  Second of all, she's probably the kind of woman sexual predators are afraid of themselves.

Once she gets that 'bell moving, I'm sure she could do some SERIOUS damage with it.
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
July 9th, 2007 3:30pm
I wasn't whinging about revealing my personal information.  I was bitching that some of you are egging Denman on.

The fact that he emailed me was only brought up to bolster my case that he's gone beyond simply "expressing his opinions", and that anyone who defends or encourages him might want to rethink that.
Permalink AMerrickanGirl 
July 9th, 2007 3:31pm
" I think any personal is anything that we don't want to become public and may vary for different people.  "

I totally agree.

AG for instance is apparently in the process of realising that her 'real' email address is in fact, personal information that she doesn't want to provide access to on CoT.

which is fine, I have the same issue.

the thing is, I think about this stuff _before_ I provide access.

she apparently provides access without thinking and then is constantly shocked.  SHOCKED.  when asshats use it in a way she didn't want them to.

revealing each piece of your personal information is a decision you need to make.  once youve made it, own the consequences.
Permalink Send private email zestyZucchini 
July 9th, 2007 3:31pm
>>> a) Are luddite career developers, whose only interaction with the world is in their IDE from 9-5

I'm a luddite...  If you use the right variation for my name, you get some old "NO" votes on the creation of various newsgroups.  If you use a more likely variation, I didn't find anything on me for the first 6 pages of google results.
Permalink Send private email Ward 
July 9th, 2007 3:32pm
"AG for instance is apparently in the process of realising that her 'real' email address is in fact, personal information that she doesn't want to provide access to on CoT."

Yea, email is a tough one, can be very personal.  The tech savvy among us probably have a couple of "real" emails and a couple of fake ones to throw people off.
Permalink Bot Berlin 
July 9th, 2007 3:35pm
"I was bitching that some of you are egging Denman on. "

yeah.  you were. 

"he's gone beyond simply "expressing his opinions", and that anyone who defends or encourages him might want to rethink that."

yesish.  it worked, it did make me regret my post.  but at the same time it strikes me as incredibly...well...Im not sure of the right word...that you could on the one hand provide Dan with access to an email address and on the other hand use the fact that he is taking advantage of that access as a reason for me to change my actions.

you have a real knack for making information available and then using its availability to try and influence the actions of others regarding it.

and its _deeply_ frustrating to me.

_you_ are the person who chose to provide Dan access to your email.  _you_ are the person who has apparently given him cause to dislike you. (not least by ostentatiously taking personally posts that were clearly formed merely from insane generalised stupidity).

and yet somehow you are using those two facts to attempt to affect _my_ behavior.

grow the fuck up.

I agree, I wouldn't have made that post if I had known Dan was doing that.  but at the same time, Dan is only doing that because you allow him to.

if you dont want him doing it, dont stop me from egging him on, stop giving him access to your email address.
Permalink Send private email zestyZucchini 
July 9th, 2007 3:37pm
There are quite a few people that could be emailed from here.  Has Denman harassed anyone else?  There are plenty of people who fit a profile he loves to slam - Americans in particular.  So...anyone?
Permalink  
July 9th, 2007 3:44pm
Post them here, if you don't mind.
Permalink Rick Zeng 
July 9th, 2007 3:46pm
Whether or not I should or shouldn't have put an email link on my name here or not ...


... doesn't make it ok for someone to send abusive emails.


If someone breaks into a house that doesn't have a good lock on the door, you may find fault with the homeowner's failure to fix the lock, but you still arrest the burglar.  The burglar is still responsible for his actions.
Permalink AMerrickanGirl 
July 9th, 2007 3:48pm
+1 AG.
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
July 9th, 2007 3:50pm
>There are quite a few people that could be emailed from here. Has Denman harassed anyone else?

He use to email me from the JoS boards. I can't remember the content because they just got punted to the garbage folder.

Glad I put the email link on there, though, as I had a lot of interesting conversations with other people. I wasn't going to hide it just because someone could abuse it.

And really, while I agree that one needs to be cognizant of making themselves vulnerable, the person who sends through hateful shit is STILL a piece of shit.

The rapist still needs to be punished, even if it wasn't a wise idea to be walking in the alley at 3 in the morning.
Permalink DF 
July 9th, 2007 3:52pm
I've noticed that you can post without filling in the e-mail box.  I'm not sure if that's a new feature or not, but that might help AG not get e-mail she doesn't want. Ya?
Permalink zed 
July 9th, 2007 3:53pm
The only option now is to ask Wayne to delete the data in the database.
Permalink Rick Zeng 
July 9th, 2007 3:56pm
"Whether or not I should or shouldn't have put an email link on my name here or not ...

... doesn't make it ok for someone to send abusive emails."

oh, I totally agree.  sending abusive emails is...well...kind of sad really.  but its certainly not ok.

what did I say that made you think I agreed with it?

the point is giving access to your email is kind of like having sex without a condom.  sure, the guy shouldn't have been having sex without a condom but ultimately youve got to admit your responsibility in choosing to open your legs.


"The burglar is still responsible for his actions."

absoloodle doodle.  and the second we can figure out a way to punish anonymous internet abusers poor old Dan is gonna be pwned.

until then I think perhaps you could be a little careful in revealing your information and admit responsibility for the consequences when you choose to do so.
Permalink Send private email zestyZucchini 
July 9th, 2007 4:01pm
"The only option now is to ask Wayne to delete the data in the database."

If only there were a way to register a new email address. Damn those internet pioneers who declared we'd all have one email address fixed for all time!  If only there were a free web site where you could go and pick out an e-mail address and get a couple gigs of storage, say, in exchange for viewing a few unobtrusive text ads.  Dream of it Rickie!
Permalink zed 
July 9th, 2007 4:07pm
It's impossible that the email address she uses here is used for other purposes.

Right.
Permalink Rick Zeng 
July 9th, 2007 4:09pm
of course it is being used for other purposes.

hence all my abuse.
Permalink Send private email zestyZucchini 
July 9th, 2007 4:10pm
"until then I think perhaps you could be a little careful in revealing your information and admit responsibility for the consequences when you choose to do so."

I didn't reveal anything.  I put the email link envelope on my postings.  AFAIK no one can find out my real email address this way.

This is not about whether or not I allowed someone to email me.  The point is that someone here decided to abuse a privilege.

You've spent a whole lot of energy attacking me for being "naive".  How about attacking someone else for sending abusive emails?
Permalink AMerrickanGirl 
July 9th, 2007 4:11pm
He wasted so much energy here because he cares about you.

No one here cares about that Dan fellow, ok?
Permalink Rick Zeng 
July 9th, 2007 4:13pm
"I didn't reveal anything.  I put the email link envelope on my postings.  AFAIK no one can find out my real email address this way. "

I dont think they can.  however they _can_ email you on that email address forever.

so maybe you should have used some email address that you didn't mind Dan emailing you on forever?

"The point is that someone here decided to abuse a privilege. "

well, duh.  there is _always_ someone who is going to behave like an asshat on the interweb.


"You've spent a whole lot of energy attacking me for being "naive"."

Im not attacking you (except as a secondary communication technique).  Im trying desperately to make you aware of the lapses youve made in judgment and to help you understand what you should do in the future.

"How about attacking someone else for sending abusive emails?"

I would if I believed for a second it would make any difference.

heres a tip. if I personally begged Dan to not email you anymore he would take that as proof that what he was doing mattered in some way and would redouble his efforts.

same if I demanded that he not do it.  insulted him for doing it.  and/or paid him any attention at all based on the fact that he was doing it.

he is an asshat.  he wants to get into your face.  he wants to have your attention.

you are giving it to him.

way to go.

just quietly change your email address to some throwaway one that you can drop without a seconds hesitation and ignore Dan.

seriously, do that and he will ultimately stop because he wants attention and you wont be giving it to him.

so he will find someone else.

someone who cares about him enough to give him lots of attention.
Permalink Send private email zestyZucchini 
July 9th, 2007 4:17pm
You give him not only attention, but approval and encouragement.
Permalink AMerrickanGirl 
July 9th, 2007 4:20pm
yep.  because he and his behavior are entirely unimportant to me.  he is irrelevant.

that isn't true for you because you (a) have given him access to you and (b) care about what he is saying to you.

I am trying to persuade you to change one of those facts.  Im focusing on the access because I think it is something you culd realistically be expected to understand and change without requiring deep psychological surgery.
Permalink Send private email zestyZucchini 
July 9th, 2007 4:27pm
How is all this worse than some Viagra mail slipping through your filter?

Just mark the mail as spam and delete it.
Permalink Send private email Erik Springelkamp 
July 10th, 2007 9:08am

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