Y'all are a bunch of wankers!

little update from iraq

How is the surge going?  NY Times has called for withdrawal. Today's front page quotes the Iraqi foreign minister: "Turkey had massed 140,000 troops near his country’s northern border"

According to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), some 50,000 Iraqis are leaving their homes each month. To put this in perspective, this would be the equivalent of a Katrina-induced displacement every two months.

Bot, can you give us an update on the fox news view of things?
Permalink zed 
July 9th, 2007 3:30pm
It sure would be nice if Turkey would invade, since that force is as big as ours.  We could pull out and leave it a Turkish mess.
Permalink Send private email Clay Dowling 
July 9th, 2007 3:35pm
because the tragic collapse of civil order in iraq doesn't really bother you just as long as it isn't supported by your tax dollars?
Permalink zed 
July 9th, 2007 3:36pm
Oh, it bothers me.  But it's too late to do a damned thing about it.  That's something in the past.  So now, if somebody else is massing troops to deal with the problem, I'm not gonna complain that it won't be my problem any more.
Permalink Send private email Clay Dowling 
July 9th, 2007 3:39pm
well said.
Permalink zed 
July 9th, 2007 3:40pm
Sadly, we DID have to invade Kuwait to take it back from Saddam.  I would HATE to leave Iraq, then have to invade it AGAIN to take it back from Iran, Turkey, or Syria.  Or, in the worst case, all three at the same time.
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
July 9th, 2007 3:41pm
Maybe they saw what happened to the US and would hesitate to send in an army?
Permalink zed 
July 9th, 2007 3:43pm
heh.  I dont necessarily agree.  lets divide Iraq up and give a piece of each of its neighbours, including a whacking great chunk to kurdistan.

then lets get the fuck out.

and lets watch the entire middle east melt down into a a cooking pot of violence, rage and wars over territory.

and lets enjoy the fact that all the extremists are fighting each other instead of us.

ie, lets allow them to fight each other over there so we dont have to fight them at home.
Permalink Send private email zestyZucchini 
July 9th, 2007 3:44pm
They should've just done a deal with Turkey in the first place: you go in and take control, try not to kill too many people or at least keep it quiet when you do, we'll say we support you, we'll buy oil from you, don't kill all the kurds...  Then stand back.
Permalink Send private email Ward 
July 9th, 2007 3:44pm
+1 zZ.

Nah, the Kurds are our friends, we can't sell them out to the Turks.  Hell, where ELSE in Iraq can we put a few thousand "Peacekeeper" soldiers that they wouldn't be under constant attack once the 120,000 leave?

I agree the Partitioning is necessary at this point, the various parties are so entrenched in their positions, an "Ethnically Cleansed" and separated nation is the only way to get anything marginally stable.
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
July 9th, 2007 3:48pm
But Turkey is not going to go along w/ Kurdistan - to them, the Kurds are terrorists.
Permalink Send private email Ward 
July 9th, 2007 3:53pm
The Turkish Kurds certainly have been Terrorizing Turkey, yes.  But that's not our friends in Iraq, they're the ones over the border on the Turkey side.

Hopefully, we can get them to stop, before they goad Turkey into invading our friendly Kurds, and turning THEM against America.
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
July 9th, 2007 3:55pm
"But that's not our friends in Iraq, they're the ones over the border on the Turkey side."

Where is this Disney version of foreign affairs coming from?  It is my understanding that the PKK and the PJAK are active in Turkey and Iran, but based in Iraq.
Permalink zed 
July 9th, 2007 4:04pm
That's the Disney version that says Turkey has NOT invaded Kurdish Iraq, and are not GOING to invade Kurdish Iraq, and if they DO invade Kurdish Iraq, then THAT IS the beginning of a wider war.

Since the Turks are nominally allied with the US, I fervently hope the US can prevent such invasion diplomatically.

But yes, there can be NO "Kurdistan", because Turkey is completely against that.  That's why there needs to be a Kurdish Iraq, with a few thousand American soldiers there to convince the PKK to calm the hell down before they burn down the house.
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
July 9th, 2007 4:08pm
"Bot, can you give us an update on the fox news view of things?"

Fox News is catching up to the rest of the print media.  "Americans don't support the war, what is the president going to do now"?  I havent watched much since the turkey surge.
Permalink Bot Berlin 
July 9th, 2007 4:09pm
> few thousand American soldiers there to convince the PKK to calm the hell down before they burn down the house.

Right.  That sounds swell.  It'll be like a mini-version of the bang-up job the first 150,000 American soldiers did convincing the rest of Iraq to calm the hell down.
Permalink zed 
July 9th, 2007 4:14pm
I'm hoping it's more like the very effective "no-fly-zone" the Americans maintained against Saddam Hussein in the Clinton years.
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
July 9th, 2007 4:15pm
1: The "kurds" aren't one single people. They speak 65 languages spread out in 3 separate linguistic families, all mutually incomprehensible to each other. Some of the languages use the roman alphabet, others use arabic script.

2: The kurds blowing things up in Turkey have been running back into Iraq to hide. And Turkish troops have followed in hot pursuit.

3: A Kurdistan would be seen as a national threat to Turkey, Iran, Armenia and Azerbaijan. There would be more joint ventures between Iran and Turkey with the aims of suppressing the kurdish separatist movement/state.

4: Turkey provides more to NATO than anyone other than the US. Splitting the kurdish areas into their own nation would result in two NATO allies at war with each other. An open shooting match with Turkey would defeat the purpose of NATO and guarantee that no one would ever trust the US again when it came to a military alliance.

5: The "melted map" incident where Mr Peters' presentation caused a diplomatic incident with Turkey when it was demo'ed at a NATO meeting.

>The United States says the PKK is a terrorist group, but U.S. forces are consumed by chaos elsewhere in Iraq, and want to preserve the Kurdish-dominated north as a rare spot of relative stability. The Iraqi Kurdish administration has tense ties with Turkey, which has accused it of backing its Kurdish brethren in the PKK movement.

>Turkish troops crossed into northern Iraq early Wednesday to chase Kurdish guerrillas who attack Turkey from bases there, three Turkish security officials said.

>Turkey’s foreign minister denied its troops had entered Iraq. However, the senior security officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to the media, characterized the raid as a “hot pursuit” raid that was limited in scope.

>The US is scrambling to head off a "disastrous" Turkish military intervention in Kurdish-controlled northern Iraq that threatens to derail the Baghdad security surge and open up a third front in the battle to save Iraq from disintegration.

>Senior Bush administration officials have assured Turkey in recent days that US forces will increase efforts to root out Kurdistan Workers' party (PKK) guerrillas enjoying safe haven in the Qandil mountains, on the Iraq-Iran-Turkey border.

>The firm Turkish belief that the US is playing a double game in northern Iraq. Officials say the CIA is covertly funding and arming the PKK's sister organisation, the Iran-based Kurdistan Free Life party, to destabilise the Iranian government.
Permalink Peter 
July 9th, 2007 6:32pm
...your point Peter?
Permalink . 
July 9th, 2007 7:06pm
The situation is less rosy than I had painted it.  But with links.

Thank you, Peter.
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
July 9th, 2007 7:14pm
Instead of wasting time trying to solve the insoluable Israeli-Palestinian problem, why doesn't the US try to broker peace between Turks and Kurds?
Permalink LeftWingPharisee 
July 9th, 2007 10:43pm
just add water
Permalink i kin speller 
July 9th, 2007 11:12pm

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