Sanding our assholes with 150 grit.

"Sicko" Truth Squad Sets CNN Straight

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/56459/ (via reddit)

<quote>
Adam Howard: Michael Moore and his research team upstage mainstream media yet again with a point-by-point obliteration of CNN's biased, anti-"Sicko" reports.
</quote>

Lovely job. And the comments are even more interesting.

The US media sure does seem to hate Mr. Moore. He points a big accusing finger at them so the attack dog commands from their corporate masters are obeyed with gusto.
Permalink son of parnas 
July 10th, 2007 6:24pm
"Moore asserts that the American health care system spends $7,000 per person on health. Cuba spends $25 dollars"

"As for Cuba - Dr. Gupta and CNN need to watch 'SiCKO' first before commenting on it. 'SiCKO' says Cuba spends $251 per person on health care, not $25, as Gupta reports. And the BBC reports that Cuba's per capita health expenditure is... $251"

OK. They are only missing one digit. Most be careless mistake...

How can some "reporter" lie with a straight face?
Permalink Rick Zeng 
July 10th, 2007 6:36pm
Sure, Moore is lying evil bastard and his detractors make some careless mistakes. CNN certainly doesn't have the resources to get their facts correct when ripping someone else for being wrong. What else could you expect?
Permalink son of parnas 
July 10th, 2007 6:42pm
>> How can some "reporter" lie with a straight face? <<

I understand your sarcasm.  In reality, most reporters are lazy.  The joke about them never spelling your name correctly is not because of honest mistakes, but because they just don't care.

Fact checking?  Why bother?
Permalink Send private email xampl 
July 10th, 2007 6:44pm
The mainstream media is the bitch of the corporations.

People like to partisan it up and say CNN is too left and Fox is too right, but that's just semantics. Both are pro-corporation, and against the common man.

Moore should run for congress.
Permalink Practical Economist 
July 10th, 2007 6:51pm
Perl6 was started by Python, C#, and Ruby supporters. That's the only explanation for why it's so screwed up.
Permalink son of parnas 
July 10th, 2007 6:59pm
Oops, wrong thread on that Perl 6?
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
July 10th, 2007 7:02pm
"Dr. Sanjay Gupta is chief medical correspondent for the health and medical unit at CNN. Gupta, a practicing neurosurgeon and an assistant professor of neurosurgery, plays an integral role in the network's medical coverage, which includes daily packages, the half-hour weekend show House Call with Dr. Sanjay Gupta and coverage of breaking medical news."

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/anchors_reporters/gupta.sanjay.html

What can I say? Get out of CNN, Dr Nerosurgeon.
Permalink Rick Zeng 
July 10th, 2007 7:08pm
Moore called him maccacca.
Permalink Send private email strawdog soubriquet 
July 10th, 2007 7:17pm
That would be racist. You must have misheard 'malakas'.
Permalink trollop 
July 10th, 2007 9:06pm
>The US media sure does seem to hate Mr. Moore. He points a
>big accusing finger at them so the attack dog commands from
>their corporate masters are obeyed with gusto.

He is just as much part of big media as they are. What happened on CNN wasn't a part of any big conspiracy, just some schmuck of a journalist doing a half assed job and focusing more on trying to be balanced about an obviously controversial issue than actually being accurate.

Moore was right that the media is fucked up beyond belief in the USA, but it's due to various economic pressures rather than some huge conspiracy.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 10th, 2007 9:22pm
The weird thing about this whole fiasco is that just a day or two earlier the leftist meme hoardes were hig fiving about a largely similar CNN story that found that sicko was mostly accurate. Suddenly Moore grossly overreacts to Gupta (listen to the way he exaggerates the ethnic pronounciation of Gupta's name at the end..very unsightly) and a largely benign 'balance' piece is cast as some coordinated attack on Mr Moore.
Permalink DF 
July 10th, 2007 9:28pm
Still, the 251 to 25 mistake is quite embarrassing if not intentional.
Permalink Rick Zeng 
July 10th, 2007 9:37pm
Gupta raised the issue of a study which found that many of those with socialised medical care are unhappy with it, and the waiting times in the US are lowest of all the other nations. He also finished his piece with "Can we do better, of course we can"

Moore wasted half his interview whining about his treatment over Fahrenheit 9/11 and didn't address those statements. Moore and Gupta were both just on Larry King, and Moore *really* comes across as "your numbers are wrong, my numbers are right. Nyah!"

It'll be interesting to keep an eye on this, but I'm starting to get the feeling Moore wasn't expecting Sicko to be taken as seriously as it has been, or that he would have to face actual debate about his movie.

The bright side is that people are having the discussion. Now let's hope that someone can actually *do* something with the momentum.
Permalink Send private email Philo 
July 10th, 2007 9:46pm
The ability of seemingly smart people like DF and Philo to willingly miss the point astounds me sometimes.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 10th, 2007 10:13pm
>largely benign 'balance' piece is cast as some coordinated
>attack on Mr Moore.

I'm curious to know how you can classify wholly inaccurate information as largely benign. You must have some serious bias going on here.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 10th, 2007 10:15pm
"The ability of seemingly smart people like DF and Philo to willingly miss the point astounds me sometimes."

The inability of ostensibly intelligent people to examine something skeptically when they want to believe what it says blows me away.

The folks on here who support universal healthcare seem to just pile on to Moore's bandwagon and blast CNN's questioning of his analysis without putting any real thought into it.

If it wasn't such a repetitive thing I might be surprised by it.
Permalink Send private email Philo 
July 10th, 2007 10:22pm
*shrug*

We get worked up about the facts surrounding the issue ($25 vs $251). You guys get more worked up about the way Gupta is pronounced.

Time and time again, you focus on complete irrelevances. Such as your obsession with five words that left Al Gore's mouth seven or eight years ago...

I'm not sure what you think we "want to believe is". Not surprisingly, you don't actually mention it because *gosh* - then we might be able to call your bullshit out.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 10th, 2007 10:25pm
>We get worked up about the facts surrounding the issue ($25 vs $251). You guys get more worked up about the way Gupta is pronounced.

3/4s of Moore's diatribe had *nothing* to do with Sicko, but instead was some personal tirade about how the factfulness of his prior outings have been (rightly) questioned. In this case CNN addressed what anyone with any critical filter was thinking, which was "did Moore play loose with facts" (he has a long and storied history. It isn't just a minor play on the pronunciation of a name when you take liberties with reality to make a point as Moore has quite liberally in the past), and in the end their analysis was that there might be some minor discrepancies, but Sicko largely was backed by facts.

So Moore goes on a tirade, obviously already prepared to jerk out with an attack on the evil corporate masters trying to keep him down. It was embarrassing to anyone but people who embrace him (just like Gore) because they think he's their only hope.

And I'm a fucking Canadian! And I am a huge advocate of Universal health care, and wouldn't have anything else (and I've argued against Mr. Philo here quite a few times on this issue. Over years).
Permalink DF 
July 10th, 2007 10:38pm
>I'm curious to know how you can classify wholly inaccurate information as largely benign. You must have some serious bias going on here.

So it says Cuba spends $251, and they claimed he said $25 (a sloppy research worker. Only a whackjob would think it was intentional given that it was made to play right before Moore could speak)...

...How does this undermine Moore's message, again?

As for actual inaccuracies, as Moore has done in the past (such as his "going in unlocked doors in Toronto". We have more property crime here than in the US, so unlocked doors are a rare event...but for the magic of editing!) he paints Canada in a ridiculously good light that makes Canadian supporters of universal healthcare a little nervous and sweaty under the collar -- it's so rose-tinted that it's the sort of thing that provokes criticism of the system, rather than supports it.
Permalink DF 
July 10th, 2007 10:44pm
>In this case CNN addressed what anyone with any critical
>filter was thinking

I honestly don't know how you come out with this stuff with a straight face. CNN makes a half-assed attempt at balance by reeling off a bunch of facts in an attempt to criticize the film which are demonstrably false.

Sure, the movie could have been analyzed critically, and flaws could have been found but CNN didn't do it.

Moore is actually getting extremely good at checking, verifying and backing up his facts, mostly because he's been attacked so many times for twisting them. His standard is higher than most of the media, because people actually take him to task on it.

You're very easily misled, DF.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 10th, 2007 10:48pm
>Only a whackjob would think it was intentional

Yeah, thanks for impugning me. Now read the post above where I plainly state that this is not part of any conspiracy, and just a schmuck doing a half assed job.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 10th, 2007 10:49pm
>Yeah, thanks for impugning me

Every sentence isn't about you.
Permalink DF 
July 10th, 2007 10:51pm
>As for actual inaccuracies, as Moore has done in the past
>(such as his "going in unlocked doors in Toronto". We have
>more property crime here than in the US, so unlocked doors
>are a rare event

IIRC, that was in Canada just across the border from Detroit, but not in Toronto.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 10th, 2007 10:53pm
>His standard is higher than most of the media, because people actually take him to task on it.

Moore is a very effective propagandist, and personally I find his creations so over the top that they're difficult to stomach (even if I agree with the core message!).

The number of liberties he takes with the truth is very well documented. The fact that he is so loud about his fact checking and how he's going to put up the facts on his website (while he carefully focuses in on one single, easily disproven fact, conveniently discarding everything else under the canard that the one incorrect fact disproves everything else...just as Moore's detractors do about his films).
Permalink DF 
July 10th, 2007 10:55pm
>Every sentence isn't about you.

I mistakenly assumed that the ones responding *directly* to me were about me. Forgive my ignorance oh great one.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 10th, 2007 10:56pm
>I mistakenly assumed that the ones responding *directly* to me were about me.

Right, we are talking to each other about the factions regarding the Moore CNN debacle. The ravenous supporters of Moore see it as an intentional twisting of facts to attack Moore, which seems quite dubious.

>Forgive my ignorance oh great one.

Huh? I'm a random asshole on CoT having a debate. Why do I think I'm a "great one" again?
Permalink DF 
July 10th, 2007 10:59pm
>The number of liberties he takes with the truth is very
>well documented.

Yes, they are. I was quite the regular on the number one anti-Moore website, and I read (and refuted) a lot of these documents. I got banned in the end.

Trust me when I say that if you think Moore's liberties are documented, you ain't seen NOTHING yet - because the "documented liberties he takes with the truth" make him look TOTALLY impartial.

And it's clear from the way you paid no attention to the actual facts presented in CNN's rebuttal that you probably didn't pay attention to the actual facts presented in any of the Fahrenheit 9/11 rebuttals. About half were lies, unfounded and the other half twist the truth probably more than Moore does himself.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 10th, 2007 11:01pm
>Right, we are talking to each other about the factions
>regarding the Moore CNN debacle.

Actually you were explaining how BENIGN inaccurate information used to criticize the film was.

You claimed it was wholly benign because "only a whackjob would think that the mistake was intentional".
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 10th, 2007 11:04pm
>Actually you were explaining how BENIGN inaccurate information used to criticize the film was.

It was benign because

a) It was a CNN fluff piece, that few would pay attention to, and fewer still would believe.

b) It was a direct lead in to Michael Moore himself, where he could have maturely and confidently correct their mistakes and saunter off the hero.

Instead he took the low road, starting bitching about prior wrongs...

Ugh.
Permalink DF 
July 10th, 2007 11:06pm
>It was a CNN fluff piece, that few would pay attention to,
>and fewer still would believe.

Dude, YOU believed this stuff. I don't know how you can claim that most of the American public is less gullible than you are.

Actually even *I* would have been skeptical that they could have messed up the $25/$251 thing. That takes incompetence on a pretty immense scale.

So yeah, false information is benign then?

Well, let me just tell you, DF, that you're one of the smartest people I know.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 10th, 2007 11:09pm
>>The folks on here who support universal healthcare seem to just pile on to Moore's bandwagon and blast CNN's questioning of his analysis without putting any real thought into it.<<

Universal health care makes perfect sense and it has nothing to do with the help-your-fellow-man feel-good crap that most idiots bandy about.
Permalink Michael B 
July 11th, 2007 12:03am
> The number of liberties he takes with the truth is very well documented.

Yes, the health care system is wonderful and Iraq is free. It's well documented.
Permalink son of parnas 
July 11th, 2007 12:10am
Exactly. Market driven health care costs more and provides less care due to economic pressures that are fairly simple to understand when explained.

The same way that market driven news reporting most often provides really poor news. This might explain why Michael Moore appears so frustrated - morons all around.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 11th, 2007 12:11am
Gupta just took on Moore again - asked him how he can so massively criticise the government then want to hand healthcare over to them. Moore's response was that FDR & JFK were good Presidents, the only problem is the bunch in office now.

Huh?

I mean, I agree with the idea that the current bunch are a bunch of crooked fuckwits, but they're still the ones running the country. Is Moore really saying "so medical coverage will suck for eight years every so often"? Do we want to folks who brought you Walter Reed running healthcare for the whole country?

There are a LOT of proposals to move healthcare in the right direction without trying to be Canada tomorrow. One good one I read is simply mandating universal service - insurance companies can't turn people away. Have the states pick up the tab for the unemployed.

To me, that is an EASY FIX that could be done tomorrow with negligible effect on the system.
Permalink Send private email Philo 
July 11th, 2007 12:31am
>Gupta just took on Moore again - asked him how he can so
>massively criticise the government then want to hand
>healthcare over to them. Moore's response was that FDR & JFK
>were good Presidents, the only problem is the bunch in
>office now.

By the same token, either:

A) You reckon they're doing an okay job at some stuff (what, exactly?).
B) You think that everything under the sun should be privatized.

Which one do you believe, Philo?
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 11th, 2007 1:01am
> Is Moore really saying "so medical coverage will suck for eight years every so often"?

Yah, that's the way it works. That doesn't mean you just give up and don't do anything because it's not perfect.

The US can't win in Iraq yet I don't see anyone saying dump the military. This argument strategy is simply desperate.
Permalink son of parnas 
July 11th, 2007 1:06am
I believe the federal government should only be given responsibility for those things they are empowered to do by the Constitution.

That does not include:
- education
- welfare
- law enforcement
...among other things.

From a pragmatic point of view, I do recognize that there are some functions not explicitly enumerated in the Constitution that are logical extensions of the enumerated powers. For example, enabling investigative cooperation between the states.

But for the most part a huge amount of what the Fed does is stuff more properly done by the states.

Universal healthcare would be an example. While the contenders for the White House in '08 are all deftly arguing over what they might do to investigate the possiblity of a study to establish the viability of universal healthcare someday, Massachusetts is just doing it.

Constitutional principles aside, running stuff at the lowest level possible seems to generally be a healthier state of affairs. Something about eggs and baskets, I think.
Permalink Send private email Philo 
July 11th, 2007 1:51am
> But for the most part a huge amount of what the Fed does is stuff more properly done by the states.

States suck. Ask the former slaves. Solves nothing.
Permalink son of parnas 
July 11th, 2007 1:55am
Colm,

>Dude, YOU believed this stuff.

What did I believe? CNN gave a fluff piece with a snippet of pseudo-facts (one of the nice things about metrics like "per capita healthcare spending" is that there are many sources of contradicting numbers) leading into Michael Moore's interview, where Michael Moore then became petulant, tossing his bottle at the host. This wasn't presented as a "Why Michael Moore is a dumbass" attack piece, but was argument material specifically for Michael Moore to debate (as is the norm for shows like that, as Moore well knows, they're going to give the opposing position to give some food for the interview).

I just didn't see the big outrage, nor did I think Moore's whole ad thing made any sense. He came across as a petulant child, and the only one's that act convinced are the people who already believe his words. I'm fairly sure that it just pushed away those in the middle or in opposition.
Permalink DF 
July 11th, 2007 2:23am
"but was argument material specifically for Michael Moore to debate"

I disagree.  News shows consistently pull useless, misleading, or outright false "facts" to counter any opinion.  By "debating" them as you said, that gives those "facts" credibility.  Moore simply cut through the bullshit.  That being said, Moore is an idiot and a lousy spokesperson for anything.
Permalink Send private email Wayne 
July 11th, 2007 2:40am
>What did I believe? CNN gave a fluff piece with a snippet
>of pseudo-facts

Not pseudo-facts. Not facts at all. Falsifications. Falsifications which Gupta has actually apologized for.

You seem to have difficulty grasping this concept. He said some things. They weren't true. This is not benign. Is that simple enough for you or should I dumb it down some more?
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 11th, 2007 9:05am
> should I dumb it down some more?

No use. Only Moore and his "type" lie.
Permalink son of parnas 
July 11th, 2007 11:56am
>Only Moore and his "type" lie.

Are you fucking kidding? Are you this stupid in real life, or do you just pretend you're this stupid?

Moore lies. He exaggerates. He pushes propaganda.

The HMOS lie. They exaggerate. They push propaganda.

__YOU'RE__ the only sort that thinks it's only possible that one side lies, which is why you're so sure that that's what everyone else must think.
Permalink DF 
July 11th, 2007 12:24pm
Psuedo-fact is the best euphemism for lie I've ever heard.

"It'll be interesting to keep an eye on this, but I'm starting to get the feeling Moore wasn't expecting Sicko to be taken as seriously as it has been, or that he would have to face actual debate about his movie."

Why do we have to keep explaining to you that lieing about what someone said is not "debate," you jackass?

When your mom starts to rot from the inside like your dad I'm going to laugh, laugh, laugh.
Permalink  
July 11th, 2007 12:28pm
Is Moore lying because he actually has his facts wrong is or his lying merely because he's Michael Moore?  Certainly he's got his opinion and he's pushing his 'propaganda' but that doesn't mean there isn't truth to be found.

Just because someone has an agenda or opinion doesn't mean everything they say is bullshit.
Permalink Send private email Wayne 
July 11th, 2007 12:30pm
>Just because someone has an agenda or opinion doesn't mean everything they say is bullshit.

I don't think anyone here is claiming that because some of what Moore pushes is false, everything he pushes is false. Universal healthcare, in my opinion, is better, but it certainly isn't black/white up/down right/wrong.
Permalink DF 
July 11th, 2007 12:45pm
"The folks on here who support universal healthcare seem to just pile on to Moore's bandwagon and blast CNN's questioning of his analysis without putting any real thought into it."

Yes, "47 million are uninsured and are rarely patients - until it's too late.".

Ask them how satistifed are they with the health care they have.

So the neurosurgeon actually apologize for some of those mistakes?

Great :)
Permalink Rick Zeng 
July 11th, 2007 1:25pm
>Universal healthcare, in my opinion, is better, but it
>certainly isn't black/white up/down right/wrong.

Nobody did. What IS black/white/right/wrong is the response made by CNN to the movie. Moore's facts were correct (and argued correctly) whereas CNN's were in several cases both wrong *and* misleading.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 11th, 2007 1:44pm
"Massachusetts is just doing it."

Wait, isn't their idea of universal health care only a mandate that you must have health insurance?

They aren't progressive trendsetters, they are fucking insane.
Permalink Send private email JoC 
July 11th, 2007 3:10pm
Dr. Sanjay Gupta is a big corporate doctor and do you really think he wants to loose his nice paycheck from CNN?
He showed his true colors when attacking Moore with false facts, and in my eyes, discredited himself as a good, and just doctor 100%.
Permalink Send private email Lin Kassidy 
July 12th, 2007 1:17am

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