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judaism rejects zionism

http://www.aztlan.net/jews_against_zionism.htm

aha!  so there _is_ a difference?

does that mean I can push for the US to stop supporting Israel in its insane wars of stupidity without being an anti-semite?
Permalink worldsSmallestViolin 
July 24th, 2007 4:01pm
Old news, buddy.

During the late 1940's, most Orthodox Jews fervently opposed the creation of a secular Jewish state, saying that it wasn't really Israel unless the Messiah showed up first.

Read Chaim Potok's novel "The Chosen" about the ideological battle between two Jewish schools of thought during this time period.
Permalink AMerrickanGirl 
July 24th, 2007 4:04pm
Um, eww.

I wouldn't take evidence from a site that believes 9/11 was done by the Pentagon.  That's a creepy web-site.

Having said that, I'm not discounting what he said just because his web-site is creepy.  Calling the Israeli Police "Zionist Anti-Jews" simply can't be correct.  Some of his other assertions share that same distorted nature.

So, let's see.  You take one argument from a creepy website, then state it as an absolute "Judaism rejects Zionism".  No, I don't think that's correct.

AFAIK, "Zionism" is the desire for a Jewish homeland.  "Judaism" is the religion.  That gives you 4 possibilities.

1.  Jews who want a homeland -- Jewish Zionists
2.  Non-jews who want a homeland for the jews -- non-Jewish Zionists.
3.  Jews who don't want a jewish homeland -- Jewish non-Zionists
4.  Non-jews who don't want a homeland for the jews -- non-Jewish non-Zionists.

I wouldn't think there's a whole lot of people in catetory 3.  I'd think there's a lot of anti-Semitic bigots in category 4 -- but just being in category 4 doesn't make you a bigot.
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
July 24th, 2007 4:13pm
So yes, it's possible to not be an anti-Semite, AND still object to Israel's actions.

Just be aware, I think every anti-Semite in the world will agree with you, but for different motives.  But yes, it is possible.
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
July 24th, 2007 4:16pm
"So yes, it's possible to not be an anti-Semite, AND still object to Israel's actions."

Hell, I'm JEWISH, and I often object to Israel's actions.  But too often, anti-Israel sentiment strays a bit too far towards Jew hating.
Permalink AMerrickanGirl 
July 24th, 2007 4:18pm
How about people who don't care a bit whether there is a Jewish state so long as it's not in Palestine where a lot of Palestinians used to live before 1948?
Permalink Rick Zeng 
July 24th, 2007 4:21pm
Those people are idiots.
Permalink Cheers 
July 24th, 2007 4:31pm
>Hell, I'm JEWISH, and I often object to Israel's actions.

Do you object to Israel's existence (i.e. the existence of a Jewish state on Palestinian land) though? Is that anti-semitic?
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 24th, 2007 4:34pm
"You take one argument from a creepy website, then state it as an absolute "Judaism rejects Zionism". "

actually I got that title from the video.  did you watch it? there was a girl with a sign saying: ...*




* you guess.
Permalink worldsSmallestViolin 
July 24th, 2007 4:37pm
Asked and answered.  People in Category 4 -- non-jews who don't want a Jewish homeland -- may or may not be anti-Semitic.

People in Category 3 -- Jews who don't want a Jewish homeland -- again, may or may not be anti-Semitic, but I'd be AMAZED if they were anti-Semitic.  That'd be like a Log-Cabin Republican saying they hate gays.
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
July 24th, 2007 4:39pm
"4.  Non-jews who don't want a homeland for the jews -- non-Jewish non-Zionists. "


how about:

5.  People who think a homeland for the jews is just fine but also believe that maybe its current location was something of a sad historical mistake, albeit unfixable now, but also that perhaps maybe Israel shouldn't have invaded lebanon, should ensure a fair trial for all their prisoners and should perhaps try a more intelligent approach to border control than 'beat the snot out of the closest arab village in the event of border trespass by terrorists'

?
Permalink worldsSmallestViolin 
July 24th, 2007 4:41pm
Yup.  May or may not be anti-Semitic, depends on their motives.

Also, largely irrelevant.  Because, as you say, the Nation of Israel being located where it is is probably "unfixable" at this point.  Whether Israel should (or should not) have invaded Lebanon is a moot point -- they did, and even THEY are sorry they did at this point.

And "invade the nearest Arab village" is hyperbole, and inflamatory hyperbole at that.  Since I would hope they'd actually be trying to get the rockets or the rocket's launch platform like any sane military would do.  But neither I nor you have proof either way on that one.
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
July 24th, 2007 4:45pm
"Also, largely irrelevant"

Except for the four million Palestinians.
Permalink Rick Zeng 
July 24th, 2007 4:52pm
Rick what is your problem?  Do you have a workable solution for these poor Palestinians? Otherwise STFU!
Permalink Cheers 
July 24th, 2007 5:03pm
At least I don't call Palestians idiots.
Permalink Rick Zeng 
July 24th, 2007 5:06pm
Workable solution...

How about donate 50% of Israel GDP to the palestian government?
Permalink Rick Zeng 
July 24th, 2007 5:09pm
Well they _are_ idiots. They are a dirt poor and dysfunctional society because they put so much energy into negative destructive behaviours. Their "solution" is to get rid of Israel. That's not going to happen so they should be pursuing other more intelligent options.
Permalink Cheers 
July 24th, 2007 5:12pm
"Workable solution...

How about donate 50% of Israel GDP to the Palestinian government?"

Come on that's not workable.  Throwing money at dysfunctional groups of people just make them more dysfunctional.

How many examples do you need?

The Canadian government gives how much to the aboriginals? For how many years? Tell me they are doing well...
Permalink Cheers 
July 24th, 2007 5:17pm
>>> Tell me they are doing well...

They live mostly on or near the reservations, drink lots of Pepsi, drop out of school young (despite lots of incentives not to), have lots of kids early, work at traditional crafts ("I got some nice carvin's here, got a real good shine on 'em"), and watch TV.  Sounds like they're doing well.  Oh, sure, there are the ones out in the boonies that literally drink themselves to death, sniff glue, that sort of thing...
Permalink Send private email Ward 
July 24th, 2007 5:25pm
Farfour dies. Children read speeches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZEGsnWZKh8&mode=related&search=
Permalink Farfour! 
July 24th, 2007 7:07pm
>Well they _are_ idiots. They are a dirt poor and
>dysfunctional society because they put so much energy into
>negative destructive behaviours.

Their economy is fucked over pretty consistently by Israeli intervention. They get stopped at checkpoints, shot at randomly, buildings are destroyed "on suspicion" of creating terrorism, and they do stuff like this:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Gaza+Strip&sll=54.162434,-3.647461&sspn=8.366255,20.566406&ie=UTF8&cd=1&mpnum=0&ll=31.240793,34.273127&spn=0.002981,0.005021&t=k&z=17&om=1

Blowing up an international airport. I wonder how productive Tel Aviv would be under such circumstances.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 24th, 2007 7:12pm
Funny, this thread started on the anniversary of our Nakba's. I just finished my 25 hour fast and I see this. Oh well.

Yes, everybody has legitimate grievances against the Israeli government. The question is, how do you address those grievances? Suicide bombing isn't going to win you many friends.
Permalink LeftWingPharisee 
July 24th, 2007 9:01pm
Fuck you LWP
Permalink Dan Denman 
July 24th, 2007 9:11pm
My buddy, my lanzman, the Mossad agent.
Permalink LeftWingPharisee 
July 24th, 2007 9:12pm
"judaism rejects zionism"

Who gives a fuck whether judaism rejects it or not. HUMANITY rejects racist assholes known as zionist.

We have few of them motherfuckers in this board.
Permalink Dan Denman 
July 24th, 2007 11:18pm

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