Reconciling assholes for nearly a decade.

Yeah, I'm gonna ask for more work

..KNOWING I'm not going to get paid for it because I'm female.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20030873/

What. Ever.  These articles always leave out the reality.

If I say to my boss:  Hey I'd like to hit the road more, and train more. 

He'd say GREAT!  And next week I would.  With no raise.

Period.  This is typical of every job I've ever known.

The guys almost always get "consideration" for the work they are actually doing.

Men always feel they are "giving the women an opportunity" whereas the men are "working harder".

Fuck that.
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
July 30th, 2007 2:42pm
Yeah muppet, you are the one male who gets treated like the woman you are ;p
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
July 30th, 2007 2:42pm
Don't you get Per Diem on the road?  Including food, housing, and transportation?

That sort of thing usually helps my economy.
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
July 30th, 2007 2:43pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
Permalink Sharky suffers from this 
July 30th, 2007 2:48pm
Ask for me by name.
Permalink work 
July 30th, 2007 2:48pm
I look forward to hearing from anyone's wife or girlfriend about how they are doing better than all the men they work for who have equal skillsets to theirs.

Thank you.

Still waiting.
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
July 30th, 2007 2:51pm
Just last evening the wife and sister were having a discussion about asserting themselves in the workplace.

"Men will do something and say 'look how great I am, can I have a raise?' and their boss will say 'hmm, in six months' and then they'll remember and ask in six months and they'll get the raise.  We're too embarrassed to act like that so we go unrewarded."
Permalink Michael B 
July 30th, 2007 2:54pm
My wife's retired from the military after 20 years active duty.  She retired as an O-5 (Lieutenant Colonel, one step down from full Bird Colonel).

Her last job was managing installation of a network and PC's to automate job training at Fort Belvoir, VA.  Being in the military, she was paid exactly the same as any other O-5 at her time-in-grade.  And she makes the same retirement at this point, too.

So it is possible.
Permalink SaveTheHubble 
July 30th, 2007 2:55pm
I just mentioned the other day in a meeting "Gee I'd be happy to do that work for you, especially if you pay me a commission".

I was promptly told "We are happy to pay you a commission if you take a <huge> cut in salary."

True story, no bullshit.
Permalink Send private email Bot's Boss 
July 30th, 2007 2:56pm
oops.  That was me.
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
July 30th, 2007 2:56pm
Ask for more money with the more work.  Hell, when I asked for more money it wasn't even in the context of "I'll do more work."  It was in the context of "this other dude, who has more exciting work to offer and will let me work from home, is recruiting me."  A month later, requested raise came through.

It definitely has to be handled carefully, and there's a certain amount of risk involved.  Given that I annoy my boss pretty consistently, there was a chance he'd say "take the offer."

Oddly enough, it was playing pinochle for a week that made me realize it was time to do this, and how to do it.  You can't win at pinochle unless you're the one who makes the first move.  It's the perfect model for "making your own good fortune".

And worrying about being the bitch isn't worth it.  You'll be the bitch with the money, which isn't a bad place to be.
Permalink Send private email Clay Dowling 
July 30th, 2007 2:56pm
Ah Clay.  But they want me to do more work for the same money. We've had the discussion.  No dice.  They don't think they are getting their money's worth, obviously.

Nothing can convince them that I'm worth more than I'm being paid because there are a thousand chumps who will do what I do for less.

Because I'm female, marching that in front of me is no big deal.  If I were male, I suppose they would have replaced me by now, so I should "damn well be happy I have a job."

And that's the REAL difference between men and women.  The hard cold truth never gets laid out.  They don't want to let me go because I'm an asset, particularly BECAUSE I'm female, but they don't want to pay me more for the same reason.

And you can't tell them they are being sexist, because then they will just fire you.
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
July 30th, 2007 3:00pm
Men think they should fight for themselves and think those who don't are stupid.

Women think they should fight for everyone and think those fight for themselves selfish.

:)
Permalink Rick Zeng 
July 30th, 2007 3:02pm
>I look forward to hearing from anyone's wife or girlfriend about
>how they are doing better than all the men they work for who
>have equal skillsets to theirs.
>Thank you.
>Still waiting.

This is probably why:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=467390&in_page_id=1879#StartComments
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 30th, 2007 3:03pm
>Nothing can convince them that I'm worth more than I'm being
>paid because there are a thousand chumps who will do what I
>do for less.

This is the essence of capitalism. You're in a job market, and you're worth much less if more people can do your job, whether you're female or male.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 30th, 2007 3:04pm
> Nothing can convince them that I'm worth more than I'm being paid because there are a thousand chumps who will do what I do for less.

That's generally how it works, yes.
Permalink Michael B 
July 30th, 2007 3:08pm
Sharkfish, maybe the men are negotiating in a different manner than you are.  I don't know if this is true, but it could partially be the way you're asking for or justifying your right to getting a raise.

Women traditionally are less assertive in getting what they want, or if they are, are perceived as ball-busting bitches.

Or your boss could simply be a sexist bastard.  Either or.
Permalink AMerrickanGirl 
July 30th, 2007 3:11pm
Selfishness doesn't care what your gender is.
Permalink Michael B 
July 30th, 2007 3:13pm
I somehow think that fairness is evolved because species where the weaker members who don't look after each other are more likely to extinct.
Permalink Rick Zeng 
July 30th, 2007 3:24pm
Whether people like it or not, there is still a decent expectation for a man to 'bring home the bacon' and provide for his family, moreso than a woman.

That being the case, I can hardly be moved to tears over men making small amounts more than women even if they do have perfectly comparable skills and performance.

I'm sure there are differences, and some of thsoe are most likely purely gender based. When you finish changing our cultural entirely and making things truly equal in other respects, then I'll worry about it.

As it stands, the expectations are for anything but 'equality'.
Permalink Send private email JoC 
July 30th, 2007 3:31pm
Sharkfish,

After I posted my comment I realized that I left something important out that pinochle also drove home for me.  If you make that bold move without something solid to back it up, you'll get fucked for sure.  You never know 100% if you're going to be safe, but you can make a pretty conservative estimate that's usually right.

So the thing to do here is make your position better.  Yes, the woman thing might be against you in this situation.  There's an expression among card players: you'll get better cards once you've learned how to play the cards you have.  So there's nothing you can do about the fact that you're a woman (well, you could try showing a lot of cleavage and distracting them, but I don't see that being a useful tactic).  But there's other things you could do.  If you were to elevate your name within your profession and boost the social networking thing (real networking, not fake plastic shake the hand and see what they can do for you bullshit), you could start improving your position.

Sucks but it's true.  We've all got things that hold us back.  I can't watch pro football without wanting to gouge my eyes out, NASCAR seems like a complete waste of time, and I don't think there is a more useless way to spend time than playing or watching golf.  That makes social networking among the general population a bit of a problem, since those are the principal leisure activities of most males.  I mean shit, I like Dancing with the Stars, which in the eyes of most males is synonymous with announcing that I like to suck very large cocks.  Yet somehow I manage.
Permalink Send private email Clay Dowling 
July 30th, 2007 3:34pm
I think it's about 1% more.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 30th, 2007 3:34pm
"I don't know if this is true, but it could partially be the way you're asking for or justifying your right to getting a raise. "

Perhaps.  I'm open to suggestion.  My work with clients gets them to give us more business, reduces the return rate, gets us more consulting work.  The more I solicit consulting work, the less benefit to me, because I don't get bonused on it.

So.  They admit without prompting that I am the reason that we have had almost no returns in the past six months.  But that has now been turned into "this is not a good thing because we want to pick and choose our customers."

So in exchange for me paying less attention to the customer, they don't mind getting software returned or hearing negatives.

Normally, one would think "Oh, sharky has helped us keep more of the money we have already earned, as well as get more, therefore we should increase her salary or give her more incentive to do so."

But that isn't the outcome.

The outcome is when we have our rare meetings, it becomes apparent that my success is to be lauded but not paid for because the suggestion is always that I take a LOWER salary with absolutely no control over the potential commission (such as you convert X # of clients into custom work you get X bonus dollars).

Makes no sense whatsoever. Anyone else in my position woul d have been offered a realistic compensation package.

So I have to resort to drastic measures.
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
July 30th, 2007 3:35pm
Yeah, utimately many women won't marry a guy who makes less money or be less competent than themselves.
Permalink Rick Zeng 
July 30th, 2007 3:35pm
Rick, why this obsession with marriage?  This is not a discussion about marriage or the reasons it succeeds or fails.
Permalink the great purple 
July 30th, 2007 3:39pm
No, but that's a very valid point in the context of what I had to say about it.

Society's expectations of me as a man are different. Why shouldn't my pay be?
Permalink Send private email JoC 
July 30th, 2007 3:42pm
"Society's expectations of me as a man are different. Why shouldn't my pay be?"

What. A. Quagmire.
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
July 30th, 2007 3:45pm
Because pay is not related to society's expectations of your role in life.  It's related to how much value your work has to the person paying you.  In a perfect world, at least.
Permalink the great purple 
July 30th, 2007 3:50pm
"Society's expectations of me as a man are different. Why shouldn't my pay be?"

Not within a narrow job definition, it isn't.  A programmer is a programmer.  A sales engineer is a sales engineer.  Gender is irrelevant here.

And don't give me any "he's supporting a family" shit.  Plenty of women support families alone.
Permalink AMerrickanGirl 
July 30th, 2007 3:51pm
Wow, sharky, that kind of business logic is exactly what I expect of right-wing republican morons like the ones I work for.  You sure we don't work at the same company?  Anyone who wished that they had more uphappy customers needs a refresher in basic capitalism.

You should really consider that position in Oakland.  These guys are morons.
Permalink Send private email Clay Dowling 
July 30th, 2007 3:55pm
It ain't a perfect world, and job definition means zilch.

My expectations vary according to my needs, so the expectations that dictate those needs have a direct impact on my willingness to work at what rate.
Permalink Send private email JoC 
July 30th, 2007 4:06pm
They aren't so much stupid as just plain stingy.

They don't know too many people like me making much more than me, so there's cognitive dissonance with their reality.  It isn't that they are so much racist or sexist, as they are looking for reasons why they shouldn't separate themselves from a few more grand a year.

So rather than pay me more, they hire an additional person to help with my workload.  Now I have no excuse for not doing MORE work for the same money.
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
July 30th, 2007 4:07pm
> Men always feel they are "giving the women an opportunity" whereas the men are "working harder".

That's a very insightful observation regarding perception. Whites borrow, blacks loot. Men work hard, women get special favors. Maybe we can make a list of these (dicotomies? what word would apply here, do we need a new word?)
Permalink Practical Economist 
July 30th, 2007 5:34pm
If women fail, they think it's because of lack of ability.  Men think they just didn't try hard enough.
Permalink AMerrickanGirl 
July 30th, 2007 5:37pm
Get a new job. Period.

I worked at a semi stingy place for roughly 5 years. It was my first "real" IT job. It was good tht it got my career rolling, but pay was not so good. And I left over money and let them know it.
Permalink Kepala Kelapa 
July 30th, 2007 6:01pm
It's gotta be a new job.  I don't think it's a given that a woman will always be treated as "less of a go-getter" but once that perception's been settled upon, you're doomed.  I've got a friend at work who did take a bit of a year partially off, she went down to 80% pay and 80% work.  After almost a year of that, she pretty much went back to working full time, but just in case she needed more family time, she stayed on the 80% pay.  So this year, she pretty much worked 115% for her 80% pay AND they rated her as if she'd been working 80%.  Purely perception.
Permalink Send private email Ward 
July 30th, 2007 6:52pm
A man who says he wants to work 80% get fired.
Permalink strawdog soubriquet 
July 30th, 2007 7:00pm
What happens if you ask for a raise:

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/13766304/detail.html
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 30th, 2007 7:51pm
And he didn't want to breach discrimination law too, so he shot both the man AND the woman.
Permalink Send private email Colm 
July 30th, 2007 7:52pm

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