Nobody likes to be called a dummy by a dummy.

McKinstry Update Pt II

http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?off.9.297878.68#discussTopic298283

"He was saw going in and out his appartment on Sunday morning, the police told me, so his decease was not on Friday as has been told here.
 
  Carlos
  Tuesday, January 24, 2006 "
Permalink Dennis Forbes 
January 24th, 2006
I wonder if that's corroborated or if a neighbor said something like "I think I remember seeing him..."

The trouble with up-to-the-minute updates is that often times 50-100% of them are found to be inaccurate later.

Does it really matter where in a 72 hour period he actually expired? It's the same event any way. Why keep rehashing it?
Permalink Mark Warner 
January 24th, 2006
If people will do Secret Santa would they do flowers?

I wouldn't mind donating to something like that if the family were amenable.
Permalink Simon Lucy 
January 24th, 2006
If I'm not wrong, a suicide attempt is a crime in itself in some countries (mine is). So is there something going to be done about the scare he caused ?
Permalink Vineet Reynolds 
January 24th, 2006
You want to beat his dead body up a little?

Or perhaps give it Community Service?
Permalink Simon Lucy 
January 24th, 2006
I guess when his OD didn't work he made alternative plans, and I'm not sure whether the fact that after his first plan failed he tried again days later makes it better or worse: it certainly seems like he was determined to go through with it, anyway. (This turn of events also explained something that was puzzling me -- gas escaping into an apartment for three days without being noticed and without being the cause of a massive explosion didn't make a lot of sense.)
Permalink Mat Hall 
January 24th, 2006
Are you serious Reynolds? What is there to do?
Permalink Jeff Barton 
January 24th, 2006
q.v. my last comment on the previous thread.
Permalink Simon Lucy 
January 24th, 2006
I think Vineet did not read the other threads, and believes Dennis is saying that McKinstry was alive and seen by an eyewitness.
Permalink Phil 
January 24th, 2006
Don't spoil the end for him.
Permalink Simon Lucy 
January 24th, 2006
Unless any trustworthy news appears that man, I cannot speculate on what could happen.
Permalink Vineet Reynolds 
January 24th, 2006
"Does it really matter where in a 72 hour period he actually expired? It's the same event any way."

While the outcome is the same, if true it completely changes the sequence of events. Of course people second guess their own responses, and this does add new (albiet unverified) information to consider.

"Why keep rehashing it?"

Feel free to ignore this thread.
Permalink Dennis Forbes 
January 24th, 2006
Besides I dont make a good session court lawyer. So I wont spoil any of his plans.
Permalink Vineet Reynolds 
January 24th, 2006
Vineet,

Acquaint yourself with current events before making assinine comments in the future about people who have died tragically, eh?
Permalink Mark Warner 
January 24th, 2006
Maybe this thread itself should be discarded. But why dont we talk about him only after there is some concrete news ? It's not that I'm not troubled by reading all that.
Permalink Vineet Reynolds 
January 24th, 2006
I'm greatful that I didn't follow those threads and from now on I'm leaving the dark side of ?off. F*** you.
Permalink  
January 24th, 2006
The importance of the new information is that Chris might not have been entirely committed on Friday: He might have been fictionalizing or exaggerating his attempt at an overdose. Instead he could have been laying the reputational groundwork that would basically force him into the act: it's a long known motivational technique to publicly state that you're doing to going to do something -- for instance lose weight or stop smoking -- to force you to do. The humiliation of failing to keep ones promise, the belief goes, will lead one to overcome hesitation and a weak will.
Permalink Dennis Forbes 
January 24th, 2006
"Maybe this thread itself should be discarded. But why dont we talk about him only after there is some concrete news ? It's not that I'm not troubled by reading all that."

Maybe the concrete news is in Pt I?
Permalink Rick Tang 
January 24th, 2006
But either way, Dennis, nobody got to him in time. It's over with either way. I don't understand how it's anything more than academic at this point, and what difference does that make?
Permalink Mark Warner 
January 24th, 2006
I really feel that we must stop discussing this.
Permalink Vineet Reynolds 
January 24th, 2006
Like Dennis said, Vineet, if you're uncomfortable with it, you shouldn't read it.

While I agree that it's an awkward and uncomfortable subject, I don't actually believe that any thing should be off limits for discussion.
Permalink Mark Warner 
January 24th, 2006
But... that never stopped us from discussing stuff before...
Permalink AllanL5 
January 24th, 2006
Totally agree Mark -- it is entirely academic speculation at this point. It's just sterile, almost detached discussion in a discussion group, honestly. Nothing is going to save him, and the deed is done.

It does, however, put a whole new spin on some of the tacitly accusatory comments people have made elsewhere.
Permalink Dennis Forbes 
January 24th, 2006
Which comments, Dennis?

Honestly I'm not sure what changes. Any comments made were made in the context of the time, and the new context offered by this additional information doesn't really apply.
Permalink Mark Warner 
January 24th, 2006
It touches on something that Simon mentioned, which is that the more real others made it, the more real it became to Mr. McKinstry.

Is there a lesson in that? No. The only one responsible for Chris' actions is Chris himself, and this was his plan, but it does have significance to some of the comments that others have made, and it's why it's such an incredibly difficult topic with no guaranteed appropriate response.
Permalink Dennis Forbes 
January 24th, 2006
I think that that's pure speculation with a 50/50 probability of being right. I think it's highly personal. I think that it's just as likely that if Chris had posted his suicide note here and been mocked and ridiculed by 100% of the forum population and told to quit pulling our legs, THAT may have motivated him to more serious action much more quickly.

Who knows?
Permalink Mark Warner 
January 24th, 2006
Exactly.
Permalink Dennis Forbes 
January 24th, 2006
The one thing that I have taken from this is that if you can't reach the person right away, don't assume that they're already gone.

If I had thought that Chris was still walking around on Saturday, settling into the idea that his bed was made and he would have to lie in it, I think I would have done something about it.

I'm not saying he would have been stopped. But I bet he was continuing to watch the boards as conversations turned back towards the trivial.
Permalink Jeff Barton 
January 24th, 2006
Hmm I see what you're saying.

Sorry, I'm loopy (like sharkfish) today. Steroids are making me a basket case.
Permalink Mark Warner 
January 24th, 2006
I'm pretty sure I wasn't accusatory but its also likely that any validating effect posting on wikipedia had would have long diminished over the weekend.
Permalink Simon Lucy 
January 24th, 2006
Sorry, I wasn't implying that you were Simon.
Permalink Dennis Forbes 
January 24th, 2006
:-)
Permalink Simon Lucy 
January 24th, 2006
Jeff -

IIRC, the Chris threads were updated throughout the weekend.
Permalink Mark Warner 
January 24th, 2006
I have to correct myself. I'd send the police to his appartment twice. It was seen by police on Saturday morning and afternoon. Saturday 21, not Sunday 22.
I keep calling Sunday to his cellphone and appartment without luck.
Permalink Carlos 
January 24th, 2006
Yeah, now that you mention it, I do believe there was a little activity on them. And I'm no longer sure Chris was watching, his impulse to jump in would have been very strong.

(Now I have to wonder if he did somehow...)
Permalink Jeff Barton 
January 24th, 2006
That was to Mark...
Permalink Jeff Barton 
January 24th, 2006

This topic was orginally posted to the off-topic forum of the
Joel on Software discussion board.

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