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New Europe, Old Europe and

Muslim Hijab

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3805733.stm

So, does Old Europe or New Europe ban Hijab in school?
Permalink Rick Tang 
March 3rd, 2005
I'd love to run around looking like a ninja.

Of course, this is the real reason Old Europe is banning these headscarves: http://www.questionablecontent.net/underwearninja/
Permalink Tayssir John Gabbour 
March 3rd, 2005
It's the length of the skirt that was the matter in question. This was the UK. It's the French that ban headscarves.

And the 'New Eurpope' 'Old Europe' dichotomy is just some piece of neo-con political bull.
Permalink Stephen Jones 
March 3rd, 2005
I'm basically trying to reconcile two opinions on this, and not succeeding very well.

On one hand, the article isn't quite giving enough context. As I understand it, Muslim parents in some areas were insisting that physical education classes be segregated, and also pulling their children out of classroom sessions that even *looked* like they might teach something about sex education. I mean, I'm all for parental involvement in public education, but... At some point the parents should just build their own d--n schools if they wanna call all the shots.

On the other hand, even though I am definitely not Organized Religion's biggest fan, the decision to ban head scarves (thinly disguised with a blanket-ban on all religious symbols) was just stupid--it's just the kind of thing that's gonna get people's backs up, however it's rationalized. Sheesh: Politicians are supposed to KNOW these things. I'd expect this kind of knee-jerk reaction from a high-school principal who's more interested in peace and quiet than in justice, but good grief...
Permalink cubiclegrrl 
March 3rd, 2005
I'm so tired of hearing that shit about New and Old Europe. Can't you for once come clean and say the Europeans who we like and those we don't like?

The artificial distinction and grouping between European countries into good (new) and bad (old) makes me want to puke (just as much as gross over generalisations of Americans makes me want to rip the balls of the terrorist loving, America hating Europeans I live and interact with on a daily basis - but they're not my main target this time.)
Permalink Peter Monsson 
March 3rd, 2005
There is considerable pressure from the Muslim communities as well as the Sikh to have their own schools on the same basis as C of E and Catholic schools and accepting the proviso that non-Muslim and non-Sikhs would also be given admittance.

It's allowable now to pull your child from sex education, though tricky as its mixed up with lots of other social subjects. I can't remember the physical education problem but the main one is some parents wishing the modesty rule to be observed in some over elaborate ways.
Permalink Simon Lucy 
March 3rd, 2005
I got to ask, what the hell is old/new europe?
Permalink Eric Debois 
March 3rd, 2005
Something Rumsfeld said when the Franco-German axis disliked the plans for invasion.
Permalink Simon Lucy 
March 3rd, 2005
I don't even know it comes from Donald Rumsfeld before today.

I bet he is lol & rotf.
Permalink Rick Tang 
March 3rd, 2005
>>On the other hand, even though I am definitely not Organized Religion's biggest fan, the decision to ban head scarves (thinly disguised with a blanket-ban on all religious symbols) was just stupid--it's just the kind of thing that's gonna get people's backs up, however it's rationalized.

FYI, besides the hijab, those muslim women also require to be examined by female doctors and nurses in hospitals, require to go to segregated gym classes in schools (actually, no gym classes at all, at the risk of being seen by boys), etc.

I'm of the opinion that religion is a regression, and when you move to a foreign country, you have to live by that country's cultural standards. After all, you don't walk into people's homes in Japan with your shoes on, and no one finds this outrageous.
Permalink Fred 
March 3rd, 2005
Mr. Luch: I wasn't saying that parents were necessarily being unreasonable about the sex education classes. I was merely making the point that there is, somewhere, a line that is crossed. At that point it's probably wisest to either put enroll the child in a religious school or home-school her/him. (Although I have no idea as to whether the U.K., France or Germany have that latter option, so that may not apply.)

We have our own variations on these issues in the States--kids being bounced out of school for wearing clothing that the administration thinks is gang-related. We've had ultra-conservative school boards voting for a curriculum that emphasizes American/Western culture as superior to all others. And always there's some git yowling about this or that book besmirching the library shelves.

Sorry if I didn't make myself very clear. I personally believe that it's better to make children safe for ideas than to make ideas safe for children. But I also recognize that not all parents trust their upbringing to hold up against the temptations of this wicked world. :) If they're willing to give their children sound educations within their own cultural/religious context, more power to them.
Permalink cubiclegrrl 
March 3rd, 2005
I have a feeling Rumsfeld has never rolled on the floor for anything.
Permalink Simon Lucy 
March 3rd, 2005
Oops: That's "Mr. Lucy"
Permalink cubiclegrrl 
March 3rd, 2005
BTW, I am equally puzzled by 'Third way/New Left'.
Permalink Rick Tang 
March 3rd, 2005
Old Europe: Those who didn't go to war in Iraq
New Europe: Those who went to war in Iraq

Some people believe that it's the group of new NATO members, the new (old) countries that came back to life after the collapse of the Soviet Union, but Spain and the UK don't qualify as communist states.
Permalink Peter Monsson 
March 3rd, 2005
Hmmmm, do I like my new name?

I'm not sure about the Mr. though, it always makes me think someone's about to sue me.

And no, I didn't think you were criticising per se, I just leapt on what you said so I could do my little clarifying.

At the moment the only faith schoold recognised for the sake of the national curriculum are Church of England, Catholic and Jewish.
Permalink Simon Lucy 
March 3rd, 2005
"I'm of the opinion that religion is a regression, and when you move to a foreign country, you have to live by that country's cultural standards."

Just out of curiosity, Fred, are you American, by any chance? If so, did your ancestors live in teepees or wigwams and wear the latest deerskin fashions like the folks that were already living in North America? ;-) ;-)

Sorry--couldn't resist the urge to twit you about that. ;-) We are pretty much on the same page, though.
Permalink cubiclegrrl 
March 3rd, 2005
An Aussie program requiring hats to be worn at primary school as a measure against skin cancer was bounced in the States (Calif?) - it seems that they were more worried about tribal headgear than health. Go figure.
Permalink trollop 
March 3rd, 2005
Interesting--thanks for the cultural education, Simon. The U.S.'s standards for private schools, religious and non-, seems to be a bit more freewheeling, from the looks of it. Of course, we don't have a Hogwarts, either. ;-)

[duck]

[run]
Permalink cubiclegrrl 
March 3rd, 2005
Third way/New Left: The idea that if we place ourselves in the center of public opinion we will win the next election.

New left would be moving to the right when you're Tony Blair, the leader of a social democratic party.
Permalink Peter Monsson 
March 3rd, 2005
>> I'm of the opinion that religion is a regression, and when you move to a foreign country, you have to live by that country's cultural standards. After all, you don't walk into people's homes in Japan with your shoes on, and no one finds this outrageous. <<

Yeah, but if you go on safari and drop by a native village, you don't want them to expect your wife to get her tits out either, do you?
Permalink David Aldridge 
March 3rd, 2005
...FYI, besides the hijab, those muslim women also require to be examined by female doctors and nurses in hospitals ...

Flase. Both in Iran and Iraq female patients can be examined by male doctors.
Permalink Dan Denman 
March 3rd, 2005
Dan, is that only the Shi'as?
Permalink Peter Monsson 
March 3rd, 2005
No, Peter not necessarily. There are other countries with huge Shiia and Sunie population where women don't necessarity have to go to male doctors, and are able to work, vote, etc.
Permalink Dan Denman 
March 4th, 2005
Actually I think he kind of retract his remark, saying that it was made by Old Rumsfeld.
Permalink Rick Tang 
March 4th, 2005
cubiclegrrl >> Just out of curiosity, Fred, are you American, by any chance? If so, did your ancestors live in teepees or wigwams and wear the latest deerskin fashions like the folks that were already living in North America? ;-)

Nope, born and raised in Old Europe. And sick 'n tired of that religion BS ;-)
Permalink Fred 
March 4th, 2005
Do you think the problem could be that the Old/New Europe model is and always was a load of old bollocks. The reason that it isn't a problem here is that in England no separation of Church & State, religion (or lack of it) is considered a personal matter and everyone not in the CoE is officially 'tolerated'.

The left in France is traditionally anti-clerical and the right traditionally catholic. Neither view Islam kindly, and while I think the law hits all public display I suspect a crucifix under the shirt would not count.
Permalink a cynic writes... 
March 4th, 2005
Fred: Rats--that lovely jibe, gone to waste... ;-) ;-)

Thanks for the follow-up clarification. Wish that I could tell you that things are better in the U.S. but...
Permalink cubiclegrrl 
March 4th, 2005

This topic was orginally posted to the off-topic forum of the
Joel on Software discussion board.

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