8, 8 days until Disney! Ah ha ha!

Moving

I like my new job. I like my new boss. But I think he is going to be hog-tied by rules that are lived by in the corporate world in Chicago.

I can't help but wonder--one of our salespeople quit (sales is high turn-over, no biggie)--I keep thinking maybe there is underlying lack of confidence in our firm's management because they chose someone like me to be the next line technical lead.

I wrote a bit about it on a site that I contribute to with some great online buddies who listen. I know I probably sound crazy to some of you--generalizing is a lazy way to justify any position--but I really think my city suffers from a groupthink that limits so many of us who are just a little different from the rest.

http://endangeredit.xlan.org/story/2005/8/4/18146/13476

So I'm going to move back to California. I'm originally from Chicago and I lived in the Bay area for a couple years a while back. It is time for me to go back to my home away from home. I hope I will be welcome.

P.S. Any Chicago-ans here? Am I crazy? Exceptions are not exactly rare, but I have NEVER met anyone in my field like me from here, whereas there are relatively plenty in California.

I just want to drop the rules from my vocabulary. I want to go back to being embarassed about having these conversations.

I want so badly for the groupthink to be in my favor. Just once. Please. I'm tired of being successful over and over only to never get the brass ring in the final stretch. I want the definitive reason for not having real authority to be "You SUCK!", not "oh we like you but <insert run-around reason>".

Maybe my new confidence comes from the fact that the company founder is just as much an airhead as me and I finally realize there is no more reason for him to be in his position vs. me.

Maybe it takes 37 years of living to get here. Well I'm here now.
Permalink sharkfish 
August 4th, 2005
That is probably why all the tech people stay and then flock to California. Somebody did an article on the subject. It is really interesting.

I attribute it to stupidity. I don't know how (on average) a whole region of the country could be dumber than another region, but I don't know any other way to identify what you described.

I haven't lived in the California, only visited family on occasions. But, you feel a strong presence of smart people doing cool things. Not just the academic smart, but the thinkers.
Permalink Berlin Brown 
August 4th, 2005
"because they chose someone like me to be the next line technical lead."

"Like me"? Like what? Someone who would agonize over a perceived slight regarding which desk they sit at? Or someone who asks perfect strangers for advice on life-altering decisions? :)

Philo
Permalink Philo 
August 4th, 2005
Your commenter Ceres is a real jackass: "I usually hate to hear about immigration into this state because the idiot factor on the freeway multiplies exponentially, but as long as you AREN'T a FUCKIN' illegal Mexican lookin' to pop out a dozen or two bambinos and otherwise suck up tax payer subsidized healthcare, then come on over."

Ceres should drop his ignorant racist attitude.

Sorry for hijacking your thread. I hope you get back to CA and do great there.
Permalink FaLing@Orbiz.ch 
August 4th, 2005
My friend spent some time in Cali, and told me about some sort of programmer collective that lived & worked in a giant warehouse. They took on projects and worked on them as a group. Seemed pretty cool.

If that kind of stuff exists in Cali and not Chi town, then a change may be good for you.
Permalink MarkTAW 
August 4th, 2005
Is there some evidence that perfect strangers give worse advice on life altering decisions? :( Or do you have an irrational bias against perfect strangers?
Permalink FaLing@Orbiz.ch 
August 4th, 2005
Boy, Philo, I never know which bag you are going to come out of!

For someone who spends a whole hell of a lot of time defending M$ to complete strangers, I hardly think you would find it odd that sounding off on a forum is abnormal...

In the world I live in, Chicago, that desk matters. Now you know another reason why I want to leave.

When I left my last company, they had already decided who would have my window spot the day I gave notice. Seriously.
Permalink sharkfish 
August 4th, 2005
Oh, try Cincinnati. I dare you. There is a pathological conservatism here that justifies crushing any new way of thinking. Decent professional people here tend to hide from view and stay within the assured ironclad protection of their cliques. Big companies are worshipped, borks and recruiters own the contracting market, and technology entrepreneurship is anemic.

Sgt. Sausage (another area denizen) seems to have done well for himself, but I have found that it takes a major self promotional ego and a huge vibe of self-importance to prosper here. (I don't think Sarge would be too insulted by that characterization nor take much difference to it.)

I know some other people from Chicago. It's always sounded like a tough town to make it and stay employed in technology. Same here but more so, and with the addition of greater provincialism, greater anti-intellectualism (drawling when you speak counts for a lot, as well as being a smartass for no good reason) and a weaker regional economy.

But, for someone who's smart, the midwest blows in general, so I think you're describing what are regional issues. Smart people don't stay here very long. (looking in the mirror sheepishly...)
Permalink Bored Bystander 
August 4th, 2005
Not a reason to leave, but hilarious, none-the-less:

http://endangeredit.xlan.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2005/8/4/115420/3743
Permalink sharkfish 
August 4th, 2005
Oooh Bored Bystander---

I hear about Cincinnati and Cleveland all the time. I have talked to complete strangers on the train, who when queried about their hometown, if it happens to be one of those areas, are happy to spill their minds about how they have been traumatized by its backwardness.

Won't be going there!
Permalink sharkfish 
August 4th, 2005
"You AREN'T a FUCKIN' illegal Mexican lookin' to pop out a dozen or two bambinos and otherwise suck up tax payer subsidized healthcare"

Yea, a little racism can always show you how completely off you are. There is something good to be said about a culture immigrating into a completely foreign society and establishing communities, getting stable jobs(?) enough to increase in population almost exponentially.

And, I lived in Cleveland, I don't know about the attitude so much as it is a really, really poor city.  Normally that can be attributed to backward thinking ideals.
Permalink Berlin Brown 
August 4th, 2005
Ceres is harmless. He was traumatized by the job market in San Diego and hasn't recovered yet.
Permalink sharkfish 
August 4th, 2005
"Sorry for hijacking your thread. I hope you get back to CA and do great there."

Thanks FaLing. I want to do great. But moreso, I want to fail or succeed based on my actual abilities.


<Wow. That sounded noble. Wasn't trying to>
Permalink sharkfish 
August 4th, 2005
Uh, sharkfish - I was yanking your fin. I had assumed the "someone like me" was referring to your race, gender, sexual orientation, or all of the above, but wanted to point out how ambiguous the "someone like me" was...

Philo
Permalink Philo 
August 4th, 2005
Stay away from Indianapolis, too. I'm at a small tech company, and it's amazing how bad our competition sucks. We don't have to do anything new, we just have to do it right, and we are in like Flynn.

It's great for us, but kinda sad in a way.

It's mostly how bad the area is hurting for competent tech people. We're signing people for really basic tech support.
Permalink Aaron F Stanton 
August 4th, 2005
"We don't have to do anything new, we just have to do it right"

It's interesting you say this. I've always had a hard time finding competant professional help in the midwest, not just high tech, but auto mechanics, plumbers. People tend to do a half assed job. I wondered if I just didn't know how to find the good people, but maybe they aren't there. Do you also find it difficult to find competant help in other areas?
Permalink Rich Rogers 
August 5th, 2005
Sometimes. Word of mouth helps - personal recommendations go a long way around here. Tho that can backfire if nepotism is involved.
Permalink Aaron F Stanton 
August 5th, 2005
> So I'm going to move back to California.

Welcome. We are nerd friendly.
Permalink son of parnas 
August 5th, 2005
Not just blood family nepotism but church and civic group nepotim as well. I have tried going with recommendations in the past and that has failed each time so far. Oh well.
Permalink Rich Rogers 
August 5th, 2005
Sharkfish, weren't you the one learning golf just to get ahead in your company? Sounds like it worked too well -- now you realize it's idiots, all the way to the top.

Oh, well, the weather in California is better for golf, anyway.
Permalink AllanL5 
August 5th, 2005
Part of what I've seen happen here in Indy is that incompetent people get work because companies are so eager to save money that they are not willing to pay to get a job done right. I guess that's how the incompetents stay in business - just undercut the people who actually can do the job.

I suspect then that the competent people get annoyed and go to California, or somewhere else that people understand that you get what you pay for.
Permalink Aaron F Stanton 
August 5th, 2005
Well hey that's how *I* stay employed but remain lazy and apathetic.  =-)
Permalink muppet 
August 5th, 2005
I'm a little shocked at the responses to my original post. I expected the majority of responses to say something like:

1. I'm blaming my location when I should look to improve myself

2. Everywhere is full of idiots, can't run away from them

3. When are you going to grow up and build your own business

4. Why is it you brown people are always whining; it is your own incompetence that is holding you back

Hmmm.
Permalink sharkfish 
August 5th, 2005
Once again you identify with your race instead of your humanity. Sad.
Permalink muppet 
August 5th, 2005
Thanks muppet! I am sad.

But I really don't want the discussion to lean in that direction.

Been there, done that. I'll remain sad, and we'll hopefully keep discussing which parts of the country have the most idiots.
Permalink sharkfish 
August 5th, 2005
>> I'm a little shocked at the responses to my original post. I expected the majority of responses to say something like:
1. I'm blaming my location when I should look to improve myself
(etc)

Nah, they reserve that kind of thing for me around here.
Permalink Bored Bystander 
August 5th, 2005
Of the 4 things you mention, sharkfish, I'd never say number 4. I think number 2 is somewhat true. 1 and 3 are closely related, and number 3 is the one I'd most likely suggest, but I know it's not for everyone. It's also not a matter of growing up, it's more a matter of self-determination and risk tolerance, which is not the same thing as growing up. Plenty of adults are fine with working for other people. I don't have the risk tolerance at the moment to dive into self-employment.
Permalink Aaron F Stanton 
August 5th, 2005
"I keep thinking maybe there is underlying lack of confidence in our firm's management because they chose someone like me to be the next line technical lead."

I'm still foggy - what does "someone like me" mean?

Philo
Permalink Philo 
August 5th, 2005
I think she means "black."

Duh.

She won't cop to it now, though.
Permalink muppet 
August 5th, 2005
#4: there is a mile wide streak of xenophobia in the midwest.

I'm a white middleaged guy so I wouldn't know first hand about the racial aspect but I know for a fact that many opportunities are simply not presented here unless you look and act like the people you're dealing with. And while race is an obvious trigger for this kind of thing the triggering logic can be extremely subtle and difficult to discern in other regards.
Permalink Bored Bystander 
August 5th, 2005
There could be some sexism involved there, too. Women in tech jobs are often marginalized. Until last year I was the only woman in a IT department of nine men, and was, to turn a phrase, "odd man out." The guys would do things like be sitting silently in the conference room, but the minute I walked in they would suddenly start discussing football or some other testosterone-related activity.

Plus they would go around the room and talk about what was going on in each of their areas, and sometimes my boss would totally forget to call on me. Apparently whatever I did was of no interest.

For a while I thought it was just me, but another woman came into the department shortly after I transferred out, and they do the same thing to her.
Permalink Dana (formerly Blue State Bitch) 
August 5th, 2005
It could just be they are not comfortable talking with you.
Permalink Rick Tang 
August 5th, 2005
+++There could be some sexism involved there, too. Women in tech jobs are often marginalized. Until last year I was the only woman in a IT department of nine men, and was, to turn a phrase, "odd man out." The guys would do things like be sitting silently in the conference room, but the minute I walked in they would suddenly start discussing football or some other testosterone-related activity.+++

This, at the least, probably means that they feel uncomfortable/insecure around you. Now, this might be their own failing, or it might have something to do with your own interpersonal skills. In and of itself, it's not really firm evidence of anything in particular.

Now, if you're passed over in meetings, that's something else. Although, we do have one woman here who absolutely dominates a meeting once called on with yelling, screaming, and crying about how her project is in the toilet (literlly. She yells, screams, and/or cries). This has led to her being carefully avoided in nearly every meeting we have. Despite her... eccentricity.. she gets her job done and rather than undertake the burden of replacing her, she's kept around.

SO I guess what I'm getting at is... are you a looney? :-)
Permalink muppet 
August 5th, 2005
"And while race is an obvious trigger for this kind of thing the triggering logic can be extremely subtle and difficult to discern in other regards."

Hence, the reason for discussing this with total strangers on this forum.

Also, I have to admit that the subtlety makes this a difficult topic because I can't say for sure if my problems are because of incompetence, gender, race, my height, etc.

I'm well aware that white males have issues in the workplace as well. I hope no one assumes I am constructing a pity party here.

Rambling further, I am reminded of how my mom was so disappointed by the real estate biz back in the 80's. She studied, got her license, and was all gung-ho to make sales, when she discovered that "the rules" meant she was NOT to bring certain kinds of people to certain neighborhoods. Wasn't always a color thing...but the craziness was so subtle...even the people "of color" participated in the reduction of the value of their homes because they didn't quite "get" the groupthink that made people choose which greenbacks to accept. Weird shit that makes me paranoid as an adult. Whole neighborhoods went downhill because of sudden, out-of-the-blue white flight and bank redlining.

Chicago is a very strangely segregated place with complicated history.
Permalink sharkfish 
August 5th, 2005
"She won't cop to it now, though."

Stop picking on me. I'm just trying to have an open conversation here. I'm well aware that I'm an insecure freak.

Moving on now...
Permalink sharkfish 
August 5th, 2005
Well I do remember that back in the mid-to-late eighties, my grandmother and grandfather sold their home in South Carolina in order to return back up here to Connecticut. At one point they showed the home to a black family, and later that evening were visited by no less than four of their neighbors who lambasted my grandparents for "stabbing them in the back." "How could you do this to us?" "I thought we were friends." "Shame on you both."
Permalink muppet 
August 5th, 2005
"I was the only woman in a IT department of nine men, and was, to turn a phrase, "odd man out." "


Yeah, I can relate. My first real programming job I got my feelings hurt because all the guys planned on river rafting and left me out of the trip.

I asked them about it and they said "oh, we just thought you wouldn't want to go." What they really meant was "it is just us guys and you wouldn't understand and you make us uncomfortable anyways so just stay out of it and be glad a couple of us are mentoring you in this highly desirable career and don't go whining cuz you are a black chick because then we'll REALLY ostracize you and your career will tank from the get-go HA HA you are stuck! We can seal you out and nothing can be done!"
Permalink sharkfish 
August 5th, 2005
"I'm still foggy - what does "someone like me" mean?

Philo"

To be honest, I don't know. I used to think I knew how I was being perceived, but now I just can't figure out for sure WTF.

I just know I'm different. No matter what films I watch and can repeat the lines for, no matter what hobbies I have, which music I listen to and share, it just doesn't matter. I'm still not one of "them". Whatever that means.
Permalink sharkfish 
August 5th, 2005
I asked them about it and they said "oh, we just thought you wouldn't want to go."

What they really meant was "it is just us guys and you wouldn't understand and you make us uncomfortable anyways so just stay out of it and be glad a couple of us are mentoring you in this highly desirable career and don't go whining cuz you are a black chick because then we'll REALLY ostracize you and your career will tank from the get-go HA HA you are stuck! We can seal you out and nothing can be done!

Or, it could simply that they don't think a woman would be interested in rafting.

Maybe you are right; afterall I never met them.

You need to know guys better ... if I am the single male working in a all woman company I certainly wouldn't be surprised if they don't invite me to some activities.
Permalink Rick Tang 
August 5th, 2005
Shoot, Sharkfish, I'm a white, middle aged, balding male software developer who is over-weight -- and I'M not one of 'them' either.

'Them' being those people who sit in offices and manage the efforts of other people, write spirited proposals that others then have to execute, and provide opportunities to advance to their friends.

Since you have an obvious difference from those around you (you're female), I know it is tempting to ascribe difficulties or 'glass ceilings' to your differences. And I don't know your situation THAT well, so maybe it is.

So far in my life, I've found the ones who continue to advance are the ones who can glad-hand those around them -- their customers, their supervisors, even their subordinates. Keep them happy with shuck and jive most of the time, and come through with substance when necessary.

I guess I was going to say that "anyone can succeed in the right situation" -- but that sounds so fatuous to me given your situation I'll just quit now.
Permalink AllanL5 
August 5th, 2005
"You need to know guys better ... if I am the single male working in a all woman company I certainly wouldn't be surprised if they don't invite me to some activities."

Yeah, that was a good try, but we discussed my work-out routines on a regular basis. I was interested in rock-climbing and asked several of them about getting started. I showed interest in helping each of them build muscle (gave them diet tips, weight-training tips, etc.), and regularly rode my bike to work and discussed how great I thought biking in San Fran in the hills on the dirt roads was incredible fun.

They kept me out, cold. They would only invite me to things their girlfriends or wives showed interest in, so I got one invite to a Thanksgiving dinner. They refused to see me as a person and ONLY saw me as a potential date/traditional female, regardless of EVERY CUE that I'm not like the women they sleep with.

They blocked me out, period. No amount of your rationalization is going to convince me otherwise. The women I have worked with would NEVER have invited me to a baby shower or lingerie party. I'm not that kind of girl.

So Rick, you MUST be saying that men are too stupid to make similar kinds of judgements. I know this isn't the case.

<I have had men in my work life who did not keep me out, to their credit>
Permalink sharkfish 
August 5th, 2005
"Shoot, Sharkfish, I'm a white, middle aged, balding male software developer who is over-weight -- and I'M not one of 'them' either."

This answer I anticipated which is why I ignored Philo's query until at least 20+ posts so this discussion would stay on track :)
Permalink sharkfish 
August 5th, 2005
All I can say at this time is ... you need to know guys better.
Permalink Rick Tang 
August 5th, 2005
Well, men need to know women better as well.

We need to know human better.
Permalink Rick Tang 
August 5th, 2005
I can totally believe that in real estate, color can be a factor. Mainly when getting started though, where someone might prefer a real estate agent of their own color. Once one is established and proven though, that is not going te be an effect. All that will matter is that word of mouth says you can find great properties at a good price, or are able to sell places quickly.

In tech, I dare say issues of race are practically nonexistent. The tech field is full of people of all shades of color. Some are good and some are bad. As project lead, you earn respect by doing great work and being innovative. As project manager, you earn respect by standing up for the engineers, keeping distractions away from them, and being able to deliver on time.

If you spend time worrying about racism, you will find it wherever you look and it will eat you up. You will take things personally in a way that will damage your ability to work with the team.

The most powerful person in the country right now is Condaleeza Rice. The most powerful nation on earth is the US. The most powerful person on earth right now is a black woman! Every country in the world respects her because she is competant, creative and brilliant. Its very seldom that her race or gender is mentioned because its just not relevant to her ability to do her job.
Permalink Rich Rogers 
August 5th, 2005
"They would only invite me to things their girlfriends or wives showed interest in"

It sounds to me like its more of an issue of not bringing a woman or a single woman along on an all-guys camping/rafting trip. This is an issue where some of the wives would be very uncomfortable if their husbands were out camping with a group that included women but not wives.
Permalink Rich Rogers 
August 5th, 2005
>> Every country in the world respects [Condi Rice] because she is competant, creative and brilliant.

You really do live in an alternate universe, don't you?
Permalink Mongo 
August 5th, 2005
"This is an issue where some of the wives would be very uncomfortable if their husbands were out camping with a group that included women but not wives."

Um, so I should pay for your wife's insecurity? My career suffers because the male bonding is male only?

Your point legitimizes women's feelings that they are being deliberately left out.
Permalink sharkfish 
August 5th, 2005
>> Um, so I should pay for your wife's insecurity? My career suffers because the male bonding is male only?

Sharkfish, you are exactly right about at least this point. It is inappropriate to conduct work related "bonding" that excludes any subgroup from the workgroup.

The counter is, that means the majority have to change their established behavior for one person? Answer: Damn straight, deal with it.
Permalink Mongo 
August 5th, 2005
"Your point legitimizes women's feelings that they are being deliberately left out."

Partially right. Some people are left out, not necessarily women or people of a particular race.
Permalink Rick Tang 
August 5th, 2005
"Um, so I should pay for your wife's insecurity? My career suffers because the male bonding is male only? Your point legitimizes women's feelings that they are being deliberately left out."

Wow, is that really your attitude? That's basically a shit attitude and you are a fool. I wouldn't invite you on the rafting trip either.
Permalink Rich Rogers 
August 5th, 2005
"I wouldn't invite you on the rafting trip either."

Naturally.
Permalink sharkfish 
August 5th, 2005
Rich, that's a load of bullshit. If your wife actually has a problem with you going on an OFFICE outing without her because there are women in your office who will also be going, then your wife is an ass.
Permalink muppet 
August 5th, 2005
>> Wow, is that really your attitude? That's basically a shit attitude and you are a fool. I wouldn't invite you on the rafting trip either.

And the everyone is stunned, once again, into shocked silence in admiration for RR's incisive reasoning and the eloquence of his arguments.
Permalink Mongo 
August 5th, 2005
Is this an official company event, paid for by the company, in which only white male employees are allowed to go?

You guys are turning it into that in order to attack me.

If that's what it is, then it's a bad thing.

But it was presented as an outing that some coworkers organized themselves. There is no indication it was an official company event sponsored by the company. That's what it was, wasn't it sharkfish? An outing that some coworkers organized themselves? Why shouldn't they be allowed to socialize with their friends on their time off without being accused of misogyny or racism? Don't pull your oppressed minority crap on me, fuckwit.
Permalink Rich Rogers 
August 5th, 2005
Rich if they organize an outing and the "admission price" is working in that department of that company, and they conspicuously and deliberately exclude one co-worker, then yeah I think she probably has an argument.
Permalink muppet 
August 5th, 2005
Really?

Muppet, I suspect if we organized an OT whitewater rafting trip, the only reason you would be invited would be if you agreed to the "lifevests optional" rule.

Maybe she wasn't invited because
a) she's new (not "one of the gang") and/or
b) she's a holier-than-thou bitch
?

Workplace outings are perfectly allowed to leave people behind for being difficult, troublemakers, or just plain new.

You can't prove an ism with one data point.

I *will* call whoever organized the trip an idiot for organizing an work-oriented outing and not inviting the new triple-minority sysadmin. I mean that's just asking for trouble, even if nobody likes her.

Philo
Permalink Philo 
August 5th, 2005
triple-minority?
Permalink Rick Tang 
August 5th, 2005
>> Maybe she wasn't invited because
a) she's new (not "one of the gang") and/or
b) she's a holier-than-thou bitch

Philo,

I don't get your a) at all, would you really not invite the newest employee when everyone else was going?

b) may be more credible, but still seems odd. Unless you believed she was going to be gone soon, you've pretty much deliberaqtely excluded soemone and thus poisoned the workplace to some extent.

>>Workplace outings are perfectly allowed to leave people behind for being difficult, troublemakers, or just plain new.

Not if you're a competent employee or manager, they're not. Difficult troublemakers being excluded means there are all sorts of associated problems far worse than exclusion from an outing - it's a possibiulity, but seems pretty unlikely. Again, leaving people out for being new just seems frankly bizarre to me. I've never worked at any place where this would happen, perhaps you have.

Remember her claim: "_all_ the guys planned on river rafting and left me out of the trip". I presume from the context they didn't leave out any other women, although I culd be misreading that. That's a deliberate affront or shows a lack of courtesy past the point of rudeness.

>> You can't prove an ism with one data point.

Sure you can -- it's just harder.

Philo, hmm, sounds greek. I got really drunk on ouzo once, so I hate all them damn greeks! See, I'm guilty of anti-greekism.

>> I *will* call whoever organized the trip an idiot for organizing an work-oriented outing and not inviting the new triple-minority sysadmin. I mean that's just asking for trouble, even if nobody likes her.

I agree entirely.
Permalink Mongo 
August 5th, 2005
Another plausible - if rather more boring reason - the booking was made before sharkfish joined and the booking was non-transferable.

Wait, watch, see if there's a repeated occurance which should give more context.
Permalink a cynic writes... 
August 6th, 2005
"I'm well aware that I'm an insecure freak."

Join the club, sharkfish. ;-)
Permalink Wisea** 
August 6th, 2005
BTW, I didn't make it clear, but from the way sharkfish wrote it, I had assumed this wasn't a work activity, but rather a bunch of guys from work going to do something - that was how I wrote my reply.

Incidentally, anyone else find it interesting that all the "lawyers must die" laymen are all about suing for discrimination or harassment, while the lawyer is arguing that sometimes life just sucks and you need to deal with it?

:)

Philo
Permalink Rev. Philo 
August 6th, 2005
I had the impression that it was a work outing from the beginning, I was wondering why people were arguing as if it wasn't.
Permalink muppet 
August 6th, 2005
>> I had assumed this wasn't a work activity, but rather a bunch of guys from work going to do something

I read it that way as well, the kicker for me, though, was the _all_ the guys part, which makes it a de facto, if not de jure, company event.

>>Incidentally, anyone else find it interesting that all the "lawyers must die" laymen are all about suing for discrimination or harassment, while the lawyer is arguing that sometimes life just sucks and you need to deal with it?

I'm not arguing for a lawsuit here (come to think of it, how many others are?), although, with you, I think there's a civil case for "dumb in a no dumb zone" on the part of the organizers. I am suggesting, from what I know, sharkfish is justified in being offended.
Permalink Mongo 
August 8th, 2005
I don't think anyone suggested there is no racism in the world.

The question is would a highly educated and presumely abled lady be a target of racism with no fault from her?
Permalink Rick Tang 
August 8th, 2005
*fart*
Permalink muppet 
August 8th, 2005

This topic was orginally posted to the off-topic forum of the
Joel on Software discussion board.

Other topics: August, 2005 Other topics: August, 2005 Recent topics Recent topics