Nobody likes to be called a dummy by a dummy.

Long story short

I was in all weekend doing disaster recovery with two other guys.

My boss invited the other two guys out for golf, saying he wanted to reward the "people who gave up their weekend to restore the systems".

I, being a known non-golfer, was not invited.

Now what the crap? If the true intention is to reward "people who gave up their weekend", then wouldn't you do something that included that set? Apparently not.

Unless I'm not people. Since I was definitely here on the weekend, I must not be "people." Maybe I'm a desk chair or something. A desk chair who, inconveniently, draws a paycheck.
Permalink muppet 
August 22nd, 2005
I'm still foggy on the whole "spending time with the boss as a reward" thing. We worked a bunch of extra hours on something, and a VP took us out to lunch as a reward.

Yeah, because lunch is so much fun with a VP there.

The two best rewards for excess hours:
1) Money
2) Comp time

Period.

Electronic gadgets are a marginal third option, but you run the risk of being pitifully out of date ("Walkmans for everyone!") or rewarding someone with something he already has. Best bet here is to offer an option of cash, if necessary.

Philo
Permalink Philo 
August 22nd, 2005
You're wondering why they didn't invite the guy in the office on the gatorade diet, the one with chronic diarrhea, malignant hemmorhoids, who posts 40 messages per day to an off topic software engineering forum?
Permalink  
August 22nd, 2005
Maybe he was hoping you'd caddy.
Permalink Aaron F Stanton 
August 22nd, 2005
> Unless I'm not people.

Aren't you sure?
Permalink son of parnas 
August 22nd, 2005
Philo -

I'm right with you on that, but even imperfect recognition is better than apparently deliberate exclusion from recognition.

blank boy -

As for my issues, they have never and do not now prevent me from getting my work done as efficiently as or more effeciently than just about everyone else here. Why should medical problems be a reason to exclude someone from recognition, PARTICULARLY when that person goes above and beyond despite them? I know you're trolling, but dude, that's lame.
Permalink muppet 
August 22nd, 2005
Shouldn't that be "blank person"?
Permalink some guy 
August 22nd, 2005
it's kinda like those open bar office parties (or weddings)... it's hardly fair to those who don't drink excessively.

sucks, but all you can do about it is gripe, eh?
Permalink Kenny 
August 22nd, 2005
Kenny -

In that scenario, at least you were INVITED to the open bar party, even if you're on the wagon. :-)
Permalink muppet 
August 22nd, 2005
Philo couldn't be more on the mark with this one. I know it *seems* like a slight, muppet, but *not* spending time with the boss was definitely the better choice of reward in that scenario, even though I'm sure the asswad intended it as some kind of passive-aggressive slight if you honestly weren't even invited.

Lemme tell you, my boss has been on vacation for two weeks and it's seriously been *almost* as good as having my own vacation, in terms of personal sanity. The funny thing is, I've actually been more productive and slacked off less while he's been gone! It's been fabulous not being bothered with pointless status reports and random interruptions regarding the "crisis" of the 1/4 hour. Of course, he's back today, so I'm sure there will be a 3 hour meeting scheduled any time now so we can all look at his vacation photos on the projector...*sigh*
Permalink bionicroach 
August 22nd, 2005
bionic -

You're absolutely right, but it's still a slight in the sense that it was intended as one. I honestly don't care what these people think of me so long as they continue to pay me, but when they're deliberately assinine and take up a position against me despite my having done nothing to provoke such a thing, it prevents me from getting things like raises and the like, which are somewhat important.
Permalink muppet 
August 22nd, 2005
Have you called it to the attention of the boss? I don't know of a good way to do it, but in my experience it is worth your while to point out a gross misjustice, even if you sound whiny doing it.
Permalink squeaky wheel 
August 22nd, 2005
"Why should medical problems be a reason to exclude someone from recognition, PARTICULARLY when that person goes above and beyond despite them?"

We are dealing with human nature. Of course we should pick the retarded kid to be on our dodgeball team, but if we can leave him out, we will.
Permalink  
August 22nd, 2005
No I don't see how I'd further my own cause by bitching to the boss about his being a dick. He knows that I know, and that's enough.

Later when I tell them I need more money it'll just be another thing in my list of silent ammo. :-)
Permalink muppet 
August 22nd, 2005
It never ceases to amaze me how often managers tend to value pointless "bonding" exercises over actually developing the skill of recognizing and rewarding competant and capable employees. I mean, is work a place to socialize, or, um...work? Perhaps such bosses miss their fraternity/sorority days? Unfortunately, people (desk chairs?) who get things done quietly and efficiently are usually screwed when working under these types of managers, as it is the types who crow the loudest about themselves who are rewarded. Were either of the other two guys the sorts who go on and on and on and on about how clever their solutions to problems were and how difficult the tasks were to complete?
Permalink bionicroach 
August 22nd, 2005
Did you really want to go golfing with them? Even if you didn't it may have been in your best interest to go anyway. Maybe you would have enjoyed yourself. Did you ask if you could go golfing with them? Did you ask for a reward?

If you really want a reward (compensation) its best to ask. Sounds strange but its true. I have never been rewarded with something that I did not ask for. I have been awarded things like medals and certificates however rewards, things like pay raises or a day off, I have had to ask for.
Permalink Dave B. 
August 22nd, 2005
+++Were either of the other two guys the sorts who go on and on and on and on about how clever their solutions to problems were and how difficult the tasks were to complete?+++

Actually no, they're both quiet, reserved guys (for the most part) who have been here forever.
Permalink muppet 
August 22nd, 2005
Dave -

And that's just it. One day soon I will ask for a significant raise, and I will point to instances like this where I thanklessly worked many extra hours, as justification for the increase in pay.
Permalink muppet 
August 22nd, 2005
>>Actually no, they're both quiet, reserved guys (for the most part) who have been here forever.<<

Wow, that surprises me a bit. You know, "the squeaky wheel..." and all that. Although, I guess if the boss has also been there forever, then it sort of makes sense that there would be more of a social attachment. Still makes it just as rude to ignore "the outsider".

I do like your "silent ammo" idea next time your performance review comes around. You don't have to do it in an assholish way or anything, but it might be worth mentioning the times you've come in on days off, etc, etc, along with an open ended "I know some of the other guys like golf, but..." :)

Dave: Agreed, but it's unfortunate that it has to be that way in most workplaces because a lot of people just really aren't very comfortable arguing to "sell themselves". If managers are paying attention to the things that matter, it should be obvious who the "go-to guys" are.
Permalink bionicroach 
August 22nd, 2005
Well 'retarded' is a poor analogy, blank, since I'm just as capable as the rest of the folks here. Do you really think that someone's diet, or their medical issues, are something to discriminate against them for? Seems sad.
Permalink muppet 
August 22nd, 2005
If you worked the weekend was it overtime? If it wasn't overtime then I'd take the time off in lieu.

The 'we have this special treat for you but if you don't fit the treat its your fault' syndrome begins at school.

At my daughter's school they organise this day out to a second division theme park (Drayton Manor Park) for those that have taken the SATs. My daughter currently detests theme parks and such and really didn't want to go to the point of near hysteria.

Rather than have all the grief I decided to circumvent it and phoned the headteacher to negotiate with her for me to take my daughter to Slimbridge a Wildfowl Sanctuary, thinking that at least the argument that it would be educational as well as a treat would have her agreeing. But of course she didn't, she didn't quite give me the argument 'what would happen if everyone did that' to which my response would have been 'then I'd be a fool to do anything different'. Instead she just blanked it and said if she wasn't in school it would be an unauthorised absence.

In other words punish the parent. That I'm a governor at the school makes no difference at all of course. If a school treat is organised why then they must go and they must enjoy it.
Permalink Simon Lucy 
August 22nd, 2005
Nope, not overtime.

We are salaried, which of course means that we are not paid for overtime but they make sure to dock us if we work less than 40 hours in any given week.
Permalink muppet 
August 22nd, 2005
Then take the time off in lieu.
Permalink Simon Lucy 
August 22nd, 2005
==Do you really think that someone's diet, or their medical issues, are something to discriminate against them for?==

it doesn't matter what I think about it. that is what people do.
Permalink  
August 22nd, 2005
I don't. I'm not aware of anyone who does. I guess you're just an ass.
Permalink muppet 
August 22nd, 2005
Once upon a time, we had this technician who used to work in the control "bubble" (basically an operator control center workspace with a front window onto the operations floor) who farted a lot.

He was requested not to work in the control bubble any more "due to excessive flatulence". It really made the working environment in the bubble unpleasant, as you might imagine. Maybe "request" is the wrong term -- they forbid him from working there.

So I can see how it is possible for minor physical ailments, if not managed well, to impact on how a person is percieved and valued in the working environment.

So, a person who is disabled, in a wheel-chair, should certianly be given access to their work area. A person in a wheel-chair, who complains about it all the time to anybody in earshot, may be valued less than the same person who doesn't complain so much.
Permalink AllanL5 
August 22nd, 2005
Oh, and note, muppet, that you gave up one weekend to help out. If you'd played golf, you'd have given up ANOTHER Saturday or Sunday to spend time with "the boss".
Permalink AllanL5 
August 22nd, 2005
Allan -

My malady is not obvious or conspicuous, and I don't sit around complaining about it. I do my job, just like everybody else.

The assertion that I'm being singled out for it is completely ridiculous, but still has to be addressed since it's relevant to the discussion.
Permalink muppet 
August 22nd, 2005
Fair enough, and I didn't mean to say you WERE being singled out for complaining, only that you might be.

And of course, I know nothing about your work situation (other than what you've shared here) nor how much you complain at work (which you do a LOT of complaining here, it seems, sometimes).

But of course, this is an on-line forum. You can say LOTS of stuff here you'd never say in real life. And I'm sure that's the case.
Permalink AllanL5 
August 22nd, 2005
bionicroach sez : "I do like your "silent ammo" idea next time your performance review comes around."

I don't recommend this. Consider it from the boss's standpoint : by the next time the performance review comes around, the boss will have forgotten all about the overtime worked, as well as the golf outing. Remind him about the overtime worked (in a positive way) and in the best case scenario he'll think of you as a team player who really helped out when the crunch time came around. But remind him about the fact that poor li'l you didn't get a nice day away from the desk with everyone else and he'll think of you as "that whiny guy who doesn't like golf."

You missed your chance on this one. Pursuing it any later than immediately ("hey, boss, that golf outing sounds like fun. Too bad I don't play -- but I'll meet you guys at the clubhouse for beers afterwards. You're buying, right?") just invites resentment on your boss's part.

Also, remember that golf occupies a special place in the corporate world. It has a sizeable work-related character -- think of it as the equivalent of a working lunch, and you won't be far from the mark. In your boss's mind, this was "a day at work, but away from the desk." Trying to trade it up to a full-fledged day off is going to be viewed as ingratitude.
Permalink Snark 
August 22nd, 2005
Pretty obvious that the solution is you should learn to play golf if you want to go golfing with your boss. If you don't want to go golfing, then it's silly to complain about not being invited.
Permalink Rich Rogers 
August 22nd, 2005
Rich, when the stated reason for an outing is "to reward the guys who gave up their weekend to recover our systems" then that is just what you should be doing. Otherwise it's just a transparent excuse for the golfers to go golf. They're in the minority in our particular office, to begin with. It was luck of the draw that two of our three golfed.

Give me a fucking break, Mr. Rogers. I'm not upset about not being invited to golf. I feel a bit slighted that the boss saw fit to reward who he felt like in this instance and not others, given equal amounts of 'sacrifice' from all parties.
Permalink muppet 
August 22nd, 2005
so when he's off playing golf with your 2 co-workers take a 4 hour lunch.
Permalink  
August 22nd, 2005
Please, please, me, me... answer my question from the back.

Why not take the time off in lieu?
Permalink Simon Lucy 
August 22nd, 2005
muppet, he probably didn't invite you because he doesn't like you, it's got nothing to do with your illness. Just get over it, you don't like golf anyway. If it botheres you that much, get another job, the job market is getting hot right now so its a good time.
Permalink ronk! 
August 22nd, 2005
1. The boss forgot about you helping out
OR
2. He slighted you on purpose

If it's #1 then mentioning it could result in a reward of some kind. If it's #2 then I would treat that as handwriting on the wall.

Either way, s/he doesn't seem like a very good manager.
Permalink Yoey 
August 22nd, 2005
Maybe you are just as much of an ass to your fellow employees as you are here and thus your boss just said "I don't like you, you whiney little bitch."

maybe you need to clean your act up and work on your attitude.
Permalink like muppet gives a fuck... 
August 22nd, 2005
You kidding me? His boss hates him, at least from the 2nd hand impression I have. He is either threatened by him or muppet did something to really chaff the guy's ass. It seems pretty damned childish though.
Permalink I am Jack's brimstone Boss 
August 22nd, 2005
Gotta figure if muppet is 1/3 as abrasive or condescending at work as he is here it's not brain surgery to figure out why people don't like him.

Or else they're threatened by his light sabre...

Philo
Permalink Philo 
August 22nd, 2005
I can genuinely say I believe I know how you feel, muppet, and it ain't right.

But you were invited, right? What would have happened had you gone? Would there have been some value in you ostensibly "reaching out" and extending yourself beyond your usual preferences?
Permalink sharkfish 
August 22nd, 2005
Nope, not invited.

Philo -

You'd be amazed at how non-abrasive and congenial I am in real life as opposed to here, with the exception of when I deal with telemarketers, the phone company, et al...

:)
Permalink muppet 
August 22nd, 2005
Thinking about this situation more, I think I'd put my resume out there and start looking if that had happened to me. It is a definite red flag.

I would want to work somewhere, if possible, where the boss was aware of and interested in making me feel like part of the team, not excluded. Something like this could happen for something with higher stakes.

I knew where I stood once my boss at the last company I worked for decided to set up new office space without consulting me in its design or arrangement. It wasn't the deciding factor, but it was the last straw on the camel's back. I didn't care that much about the office space design so much, but I thought I should have been consulted, under the circumstances (don't ask--it just should have been done, given the way things had always been handled).

Sometimes people give us cues because they don't know how else to communicate.

I knew I wasn't wanted anymore. Maybe that's what is happening here.
Permalink sharkfish 
August 22nd, 2005
Maybe, but meanwhile he keeps telling me that my work is appreciated and that they're glad to have me on the team, yadda yadda yadda every time I have a review or some issue comes up where my performance is relevant.
Permalink muppet 
August 22nd, 2005
I got great reviews and accolades, too.

I dunno. Smart people make regular people uncomfortable.

I remember how pissed I was when the boss made an off-hand remark about me during jovial conversation about hiring a new developer "..oh we don't want them to be too smart (ha-ha-ha)...you know how smart people are just like you...over-analyze, get bored easily...(har de har de har)"

They were just jabbing me a little for fun, but they meant what they said.

They like that you make them look good, get things done, but they prefer to be the ones that get the glory, make things happen. If your group gets the pats on the back, but everyone knows it couldn't have been done without you, even the people outside your group, you're the one they want out.

That's my opinion from my personal experience.

Re-reading this I sound like a pompous ass.

Really, I'm not.
Permalink sharkfish 
August 22nd, 2005
I am just trying to say that you strike me as one of smarter ones, muppet. I'm not trying to be complimentary. I don't have to like someone to think they are smart

In other words, "I can't stand yo ass but you know you got the book smarts."

;p
Permalink sharkfish 
August 22nd, 2005
Actually, I think it's the "book smarts" he's missing. He's got the low, animal (lemur?) cunning, but not the pieces of paper.
Permalink Ward 
August 22nd, 2005
> it's kinda like those open bar office parties (or weddings)

The psychotic for whom I used to work invited everyone in the company to his wedding (to his mail-order Ukranian bride)...but the bar was a cash bar.

Same thing for the annual Non-Specific Holiday Party.
Permalink Dan Rowan or Dick Martin - your choice 
August 23rd, 2005
Non...specific...holiday...party?

Oh, for crying out loud.
Permalink a cynic writes... 
August 23rd, 2005
Metinkit we're just dying to meet the other expatriates.

Or have we missed something about the locals?
Permalink trollop 
August 23rd, 2005
When I was in the IT department here, my manager plus the two other guys in the department would stroll by my desk almost daily ... "Bye, Dana, we're going out to lunch." Never invited me. Never even offered to bring something back. And both of them were hired after me, at the same job level, and were given private offices while I remained camped in an alcove between my boss's office and the president's noisy secretary.

Let's face it, in work situations there are cliques, and managers aren't always smart enough to stay above the petty alliances. My boss finally turned out to be such an asshole that I finally ended up transferring out of that department. My new coworkers enjoy the pleasure of my company. Fortunately, the feeling is mutual.
Permalink Dana 
August 23rd, 2005
> Non...specific...holiday...party?

Not really, that was just what I derisively named it. I believe it was "offically" called "Employee Appreciation Night." The head of marketing, whose job it was (by default) to put on the wing-ding, would get very angry if anyone suggested it was in any way related to a religious holiday. Go figure.
Permalink Dan Rowan or Dick Martin - your choice 
August 23rd, 2005

This topic was orginally posted to the off-topic forum of the
Joel on Software discussion board.

Other topics: August, 2005 Other topics: August, 2005 Recent topics Recent topics