Reconciling assholes for nearly a decade.

britain, england, united kingdom ?

What is the difference between Britain, England, United Kingdom?
Scotland, Wales, Ireland: where do they belong to? And what kind of sovereignty that they have?
Permalink Akimbo 
March 7th, 2005
They have very little sovereignty any more. It has all been ceded to the EU. :-)
Permalink Ian Boys 
March 7th, 2005
I like to refer to Great Britain as "Pretty-Good" Britain. But then again, I'm one of those bloody Americans, from across the pond...
Permalink Steve-O 
March 7th, 2005
The full title of the UK is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Great Britain includes England, Scotland and Wales. The United Kingdom forms a sovereign nation governed from Westminster in London.

Ireland, or Eire, is a separate sovereign nation that occupies the southern part of Ireland. Both the UK and Eire are members of the European Union.
Permalink Ian Boys 
March 7th, 2005
Oh, and England, Scotland and Wales are countries. Historically, England and Scotland were separate kingdoms and Wales is a principality. Northern Ireland has a rather complicated history that I won't go into.
Permalink Ian Boys 
March 7th, 2005
Isle of Man? Channel Isles? Rockall?

especially Rockall ...

http://www.therockalltimes.co.uk/
Permalink trollop 
March 7th, 2005
Gibraltar?

Hong Kongs's been handed back to Red China.

... and Diego Garcia's been rented to the Yanks, having scraped all the natives off to be dumped somewhere else.
Permalink trollop 
March 7th, 2005
Gibraltar is still a protectorate, they're a separate country so far as the UN and Olympic Games are concerned. The Gibraltarians still want to maintain the connection and don't want to become part of Spain.

The Channel Islands are not part of the British Isles, though part of the possessions of the British Crown.
Permalink Simon Lucy 
March 8th, 2005
And Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have their own parliaments, but England doesn't. England and Wales share a legal and educational system but Scotland has it's own.

Basically Great Britain is a superset of the United Kingdom which itself contains England, Scotland and Wales. As well as NI, it also includes a small number of obscure colonies, such as the Falklands.
Permalink Mr Jack 
March 8th, 2005
In terms of Soverignty, both Scotland and Wales now have their own assemblies, the Scottish Assembly is considerably more powerful. Both assemblies tend to create better social measures than the National Parliament in Westminster, but then some in England would say that's because they're heavily subsidised.

England does not have its own assembly but as it monopolises to a great extent the business of the National Parliament it isn't really a problem

Whereas, the Treaties of Rome and Maastricht granted the EU the privilege of determining EU law and all the member countries agreed to uphold agreed decisions actual implementation has to be consistent with local laws and procedures and so Soverignty over implementation is still largely held by the individual member states. However, neither Scotland nor Wales are separate members but are one of the nine economic areas that make up the Great Britain.

The term british is one of citizenship and nationality but the actual nationality any one claims is likely to be one of the constituent countries, so I'm English and only secondarily British.
Permalink Simon Lucy 
March 8th, 2005
Isle of Man is independent and isn't part of the EU. There are exactly two distinguishing features about it: the motorcycle race and the friendly tax code. ;)
Permalink Flasher T 
March 8th, 2005
Along with the million pound income you need to settle there.
Permalink Simon Lucy 
March 8th, 2005
The British Isles - an archipelago in the North Atlantic
Great Britain - the biggest island - with most of England, Scotland and Wales on it.
Ireland - the next biggest island (& historical kingdom given to the King of England by the Pope in the late 1100's).
Isle of Man - an island between the two and semi-independent fife (returned to Crown several hundred years ago)
Channel Islands - remnants of the Duchy of Normandy (the rest lost in the 100 years war) just off France.
England - nation created in the 9th century by Queen's great...(many times)...great granddad, Athelstan (grandson of Alfred the Great).
Scotland - nation created in the 9th-10th century by some of the Queen's other ancestors.
Wales - principality (or group of principalities) formed by romanised Celts in the dark ages. Annexed by England in the middle ages.

The United Kingdom - Union of England (+Wales) & Scotland cooked up in 1714 - about a century after the King of Scots inherited the Kingdom of England - to ensure a protestant succession. In 1802 Ireland was added, and in 1922 most of Ireland left. There has been some devolution recently.

...and to confuse the issue further currently all citizen's of EU countries are citizens (citizens of the Irish Republic have always been citizens) - most citizenship rights go to citizens of Commonwealth Countries (other than the right to live here) in ways to baroque to follow, and we don't have a single document called "The Constitution" so most things (boundaries, citizenship, system of government) are up for grabs.

Have I missed anything?
Permalink a cynic writes... 
March 8th, 2005
Where are the bits of England which aren't a part of the British Isles?

Lyonesse perhaps, out west of Lizard Point?
Permalink Simon Lucy 
March 8th, 2005
buggered if I know Simon...but not all of England is on the island of Great Britain (see above)- e.g. the Isle of Wight, the Scilly Isles, Canvey even (in all its tacky glory).

Rockall's part of Scotland BTW.
Permalink a cynic writes... 
March 8th, 2005
Ahhh, I see what you mean.
Permalink Simon Lucy 
March 8th, 2005
Citizen? I thought you were all subjects of Her Majesty?
Permalink KayJay 
March 8th, 2005
We are. We're also refered to as citizens, and people from abroad who want to become subjects of our Noble Queen must take citizenship lessons.

This shouldn't surprise you. We're also the people invented cricket and buy petrol by the litre but measure our fuel consumption in mpg.
Permalink Mr Jack 
March 8th, 2005
Not since the early 80s. Then things got complicated;-) Essentially you can have British Nationality (in various grades) without being a British Citizen. Plus if you a citizen of a Commonwealth Country who is legally resident you get political rights, plus if you a citizen of an EU country you get full political rights. No it doesn't make sense.
Permalink a cynic writes... 
March 8th, 2005
I was quite surprised one time, talking to a South African guy in London, to find out that he needed both a visa to enter England and a work permit to stay there for any extended time. He was white, too.
Permalink Flasher T 
March 8th, 2005
---" Gibraltar is still a protectorate, they're a separate country so far as the UN and Olympic Games are concerned. "-----

No, Gibraltar is a military base. It's no more an independent country than the dozen or so military bases in the UK ae.

Now the UK government certainly doesn't consider Gibralter civilian population to be EU citizesn, as it refuses them a UK passport and the right of residence in the UK. And then it has the cheek to complain when the Spanish refuse to treat stateless Gibraltar residents as EU citizens.

----"Isle of Man is independent and isn't part of the EU. There are exactly two distinguishing features about it: the motorcycle race and the friendly tax code. ;)"-----

The tax code is about the only friendly thing on the Isle of Man.
Permalink Stephen Jones 
March 8th, 2005
"He was white, too."

Ummm...how is that relevant?
Permalink Ian Boys 
March 8th, 2005
>> Now the UK government certainly doesn't consider Gibralter civilian population to be EU citizesn, as it refuses them a UK passport and the right of residence in the UK. And then it has the cheek to complain when the Spanish refuse to treat stateless Gibraltar residents as EU citizens. <<

More precisely, http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind/en/home/applying/british_nationality/application_forms/guide_to_registration3.textonly.html
"You may apply [for Registration as a British citizen] if:

You are a British overseas territories citizen (see notes below) and have connections with Gibraltar

such as you were, or your mother, or your father was

  * born in Gibraltar, or
  * naturalised in Gibraltar, or
  * registered in Gibraltar, as a British overseas territories citizen or, before 26 February 2002, as a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies. "
Permalink David Aldridge 
March 8th, 2005
Looks like the British changed the rules in 2002.

The eal irony of course was that before that anybody born in Gibraltar could get automatic right of residence in the UK by renouncing his British overseas Citixneship and taking Spanish citizenship, which he would automatically be entitled to since he was born in part of Spain :)
Permalink Stephen Jones 
March 8th, 2005
If you ever see footage from when they opened the border back in the 80s there's a group of lads sitting on a roof cheering, with one of them jumping about like a madman waving a Union Jack. A few years later I shared a flat with him in college. Believe me taking Spanish citizenship wouldn't een appear on their radar as an option.
Permalink a cynic writes... 
March 8th, 2005
Canada is much more simple.

Stay here three years and they can't ever kick you out.
Permalink Rick Tang 
March 8th, 2005
Unless you work your whole life in a colonial government and want to retire.
Permalink Rick Tang 
March 8th, 2005
---"Believe me taking Spanish citizenship wouldn't een appear on their radar as an option."---

I know, that's why I was said it was ironic that it would have been the quickest way for them to gain the right of residence in the UK.

Personally I think the Spanish should invade Lands End, set up a load of banks where you can lauder your money no questions asked, sell booze and fags at Spanish prices, offer to double the salary of all those who want to live there, and then after a hundred years hold a referendum to see if everybody wants to go join the UK or stay on the gravy train.
Permalink Stephen Jones 
March 9th, 2005
Do Ceuta & Melilla count?
Permalink a cynic writes... 
March 9th, 2005
Ceuta and Melilla count a lot to the Moroccan government, because, like the fishing coecessions, it can bring up the issue anytime it wants to squeeze the Spanish government into getting even more money for Morocco from the EU, or hold back either from complaining too much about Morocco's annexation and colonization of ex-Spanish Sahara.

It also is quite useful to the British who can point to it on the map, or whistle the names under their breath, every time the Spanish pressurize them too much about Gibraltar. If they'd read the Treaty of Utrecht they could use Catalonia as a bogey man instead, but as the British never bother to adhere to any treaties they sign, why should they bother to read them?

They also count for cannabis wholesalers as they are a useful staging point. About twenty years ago one of my friends was 14 and in a Catholic junior High. When asked where they wanted to go for the graduation trip they all chose Melilla. The teacher was somewhat surprised when they told her they didn't need any lottery tickets or lemonade and sangria stalls to finance the trip as was usual. The teacher finally understood why when 25 out of 30 of her charges were busted on the way back in to the peninsula.
Permalink Stephen Jones 
March 10th, 2005
mmm...I thought it might. Ricky (my old flat mate) yelled the names when he went off on one onetime. It was just after a Welsh nationalist asked "Why don't you wnat to be Spanish?". Quite a loud evening all told - not helped by Ricky's habit of slipping into Yanito when stressed.
Permalink a cynic writes... 
March 10th, 2005
It's Llanito
Permalink Stephen Jones 
March 10th, 2005
It's bleeding incomprehensible ;-)

I'd always remembered it as Janito (it was almost 20 years ago) - but wikipedia reckons either yanito or llanito.
Permalink a cynic writes... 
March 10th, 2005
It is the standard dialect of the Campo de Gibraltar. Not to diffeerent from other Andalucian dialects.

I had a friend in Barcelona who came from Linea de la Conccepcion just on the other side of the border. The day Franco closed the border half her family were on the other side. for the first year they visited them via Morocco, but after you did that three times Franco took your passport so for the next twenty-three years they would stand half a kilomet away from each other on either side of the frontier and shout.
Permalink Stephen Jones 
March 10th, 2005
Ricky mentioned La Linea (same place?). The second worst thing I found with yanito/llanito* was that it veered from English sounding bits to Spanish sounding bits often in the same sentence. The worst thing was that the person speaking often didn't realise they'd stopped speaking English. Which could make conversation confusing:-)

* since this was in Wales I can't think of anything starting "Ll" without hearing a hissing sound.
Permalink a cynic writes... 
March 10th, 2005
ll in Spanish is pronounced 'y'. I am Welsh so I can pronounce the 'll' that way too. I find the hardest is to pronounce it in Catalan since it actually is two sounds.

La Linea is the town just opposite Gibraltar. Mixing up English and Spanish words in the States is quite common too. And of course English came about because people kept mixing up Old English, Danish and French words.

I've sometimes found I've changed from one language to another and not realized it - instead I've got incredibly irritated because my interlocutors didn't seem to have the least idea what I was talking about.I don't think I ever mix the two in the same sentence, though I quite commonly use Spanish words under the impression that they are English ones.
Permalink Stephen Jones 
March 11th, 2005

This topic was orginally posted to the off-topic forum of the
Joel on Software discussion board.

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