Nobody likes to be called a dummy by a dummy.

Two words to expunge from the English language

#1: Hero. Any asshole can be a hero. All you have to do is get killed in some unfortunate way: fall down a well, get trapped in a mine, get your ass blown off in Iraq. Bertolt Brecht wrote, correctly, 'Unhappy is the land that needs heroes'. Enough said.

#2. Miracle. Ah, yes, it was instantly a 'miracle' that 12 miners were found alive (though not, intriguingly, a miracle that they were trapped in the first place). Curoiusly the word hid from the light when it was found to be a far more mundane experience: human tradgedy, pure and simple, ending in grief and loss. Oh, and this little tidbit that the Chinese couldn't help but crow about:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-01/05/content_4014800.htm

All that aside, people PLEASE get the hint: God, if it exists, doesn't give two shits for you, or your town, or your granny's fanny. We are on our own, so grow up and stop acting like fucking children.

Thank you.
Permalink Star Wars Kid 
January 5th, 2006
Yes, because if God cared then there would be absolutely no suffering and we'd live in a perfect world with no pain or loss. Only we wouldn't know it.

This is a tired, TIRED argument, Gus.
Permalink Mark Warner 
January 5th, 2006
No Mark, you're the one with the tired fantasy bullshit. Show me one fucking miracle. Just one.
Permalink Star Wars Kid 
January 5th, 2006
You're here, SWK.

I think you're confused about what a miracle is.
Permalink Mark Warner 
January 5th, 2006
"God, if it exists, doesn't give two shits for you, or your town, or your granny's fanny. We are on our own, so grow up and stop acting like fucking children."

Well, giving the option of free will is a lot different then not caring. When I have kids, I'm sure I will want to protect them. But at some point I have to let them go off on their own where they can get hurt. I still care for them. Or are you saying I don't?
Permalink Cory Foy 
January 5th, 2006
Mark,
Tou-fucking-che. You really got me, dude.

Cory,
The point is that GOD DOES NOT INTERVENE. So please, please, stop with the miracle shit. There is no such thing as magic or miracles.

And no, I don't give a damn about anyone's children. Children are gross.
Permalink Star Wars Kid 
January 5th, 2006
Get a life, SWK. :) Seriously you're not even a particularly GOOD troll. Read through the archives for threads with 'muppet' in them, and learn how it's done. :)
Permalink Mark Warner 
January 5th, 2006
"The point is that GOD DOES NOT INTERVENE. So please, please, stop with the miracle shit. There is no such thing as magic or miracles."

My question is, would you want him to?
Permalink Cory Foy 
January 5th, 2006
Marpet,
I know who you are. I've been on ?off since day one. For the record, you are a HELL of a troll. I can't touch you on that score dude, I'm not even trying.

That's the thing... I'm not trolling. I serious. I am so sick of people that beleive in an activist god that I'm about to go on a kill spree, just to prove them wrong.
Permalink Star Wars Kid 
January 5th, 2006
>>My question is, would you want him to?

If my ass was trapped in mine, you bet your sweet patoot.
Permalink Star Wars Kid 
January 5th, 2006
Who said that I believe in an activist God?
Permalink Mark Warner 
January 5th, 2006
Who said you didn't?
Permalink Star Wars Kid 
January 5th, 2006
How's this:

I don't believe that God intervenes in all instances, or even most instances. I DO believe that it's possible that He intervenes in subtler ways that we just don't get, but how would we know? That's the tricky thing with belief.

But on a grand scale, no, I don't think God steps in to end world hunger or stop wars or rescue 12 miners.
Permalink Mark Warner 
January 5th, 2006
"If my ass was trapped in mine, you bet your sweet patoot."

What about if you were about to play a porn movie, or cheat on your wife, or cut someone off in traffic?

That's the rub. Free Will means free will in all cases. Either you have it or you don't. If you don't want God controlling every aspect of your life like a puppet, then you get the bad of having bad things happen.

Or do you think that should only apply in situations that you consider "bad"?
Permalink Cory Foy 
January 5th, 2006
>>I don't think God steps in to end world hunger or stop wars or rescue 12 miners.
Ah! So you agree with me.
So your initial 'tired argument Gus' wisecrack was actually because
a) you thought I was trolling and
b) you wanted to feed the troll and
c) you like me.
Permalink Star Wars Kid 
January 5th, 2006
>>Or do you think that should only apply in situations that you consider "bad"?
Well, duh.
Permalink Star Wars Kid 
January 5th, 2006
>>Or do you think that should only apply in situations that you consider "bad"?

>Well, duh.

Well, then that's a pretty poor argument. "I want to accept this God thing only on the terms I find acceptable. Since I don't like the terms, then the whole thing is a load of crap"

Shame they didn't create a Worst Troll Award of the month or else I would nominate this thread for it.
Permalink Cory Foy 
January 5th, 2006
"I DO believe that it's possible that He intervenes in subtler ways that we just don't get, but how would we know?"

Why do believe he interviens at all. It's so subtle we don't get it and don't know it? Seems rather pointless. Of course, next you're going to argue that it's God and He doesn't need a point -- Some people's beliefs are just plain stupid.
Permalink Almost H. Anonymous 
January 5th, 2006
So AA, your argument is that if you can't completely understand something, it may as well not exist?

There's an awful lot of quantum physics we'd better just toss out...
Permalink Mark Warner 
January 5th, 2006
God may exist, I accept that.

But that God intervenes *sometimes* in ways we cannot understand is a pretty stupid belief. Did God choose to save one miner or was that one time he didn't intervene and instead things happened that guy was lucky? You might as well believe in the flying spegetti monster because it makes as much sense as randomly assigning outcomes to God.
Permalink Almost H. Anonymous 
January 5th, 2006
I don't know one way or another, AA. How can you claim that you do?

I'm not sitting here preaching that God saved that one miner. I'm saying "maybe".

Truthfully, that's all you can say either. There's no ulterior motive in my "maybe", it just is what it is.
Permalink Mark Warner 
January 5th, 2006
People PLEASE.
My god exists, you'll just have to beleive that, because you have to. See, there's no evidence, because god does intervene but in such a sly fashion that *no one can ever know*. Hee hee, my god is a clever god! So smart! He dodges any and all attempts to have any basis whatsoever for positing his existence. Wow!

So clearly you can see the value in believing in my god. He never shows up, never talks, well in fact doesn't do jack shit that matters (except when he does, but he does it all secret and shit so no one can tell) because god forbid that he be reasonable about it and SHOW HIS FUCKING FACE.

Free will, my ass. For that argument to mean anything, we'd also need to have good information. Information like, 'Hi, I'm God, I exist, and here's the proof. Now, here's what I'd like from you, and here's what you can expect from me." Then we could make up our minds, yah?
Permalink Star Wars Kid 
January 5th, 2006
So Mark, your argument is that if you can't completely understand something, it may exist?

How is that any different from what your argument 2 posts up?

It's still stupid. There's no reason to believe God involvement unless you want to use it to convert others to the belief in God ("look miracles") or convince yourself of a believe in God ("look miracles").

It's funny how you believe something with no basis to strengthen your belief in something with no basis. Now, I don't think a belief in God is stupid. I'd belief in heaven on fluffy clouds with angels and harps is completely ridiculous and has no basis what so ever. Miracles, same deal.

If you want to point to the bible as some evidence then God is more likely to smite a miner than save him.
Permalink Almost H. Anonymous 
January 5th, 2006
Make up your mind? If God Himself came down to earth, proved his existence, and told you "here's the rules and you follow them or go to Hell", then who's going to break the rules? That's not free will, that's intimidation.
Permalink Mark Warner 
January 5th, 2006
I believed in God because I was raised to believe in God. When people told me there was no God, I got angry. I insulted them, I cursed them. I thought they were misguided. I thought they were idiotic. I thought they just had some little thing they couldn't get past, otherwise they would see what is obvious, to see what I've seen since I was child.

What I couldn't see that it was all a lie. I was living in a fantasy world, because I wanted to, because I couldn't confront what is completely obvious if you haven't been lied to since birth. I was like the person who sent all their money to a televangelist, I didn't want to admit that I'd been conned. I didn't want to admit that I had conned others. I didn't want to be part of lie, I wanted to be part of truth. But it was easier to believe the lie.

There is no God. There is no justice. There is no right or wrong. We are but animals and our survival is precarious. It painful to confront. Extremely painful at first. But living becomes so much easier when open your eyes and see the world for what it really is. Then things get interesting.
Permalink ronk! 
January 5th, 2006
>>That's not free will, that's intimidation.
HA HA HA HA HA. This is seriously funny shit.
Okay, so god instead only *hints* at what the deal actually is, but never offers anything approaching a reasonable amount of evidence concerning his existence, his will, or his terms. Nope. Just a bunch of controlling misogynists calling each other names and damning each other to hell. Now quick! Which side are you on?

For real, dude: don't you think it's kind of shitty to:
a) make creatures capable of forming beleif based on evidence, then WITHOLD evidence from them and
b) make creatures capable of suffering, then insure that the will suffer by witholding evidence.

Pretty twisted shit. This god character is starting to sound like a tremendous asshat.
Permalink Star Wars Kid 
January 5th, 2006
"Extremely painful at first."

I never found it painful, but then I wasn't raised with any supernatural beliefs (except for Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny).

"There is no justice."

Man makes his own justice.

"There is no right or wrong."

Man determines right and wrong (and does a pretty good job of it, too).
Permalink Almost H. Anonymous 
January 5th, 2006
"Free will, my ass. For that argument to mean anything, we'd also need to have good information. Information like, 'Hi, I'm God, I exist, and here's the proof. Now, here's what I'd like from you, and here's what you can expect from me." Then we could make up our minds, yah?"

Actually, no. Maybe for that argument to mean anything to you it needs that criteria. Which shows free will in play. You have the option of thinking its a load of crap, and I rightfully respect that viewpoint.

But, that's not my point. My point is that you asked for God to intervene in a bad situation, and were mad that He didn't, but strangely you aren't mad that He didn't just intervene when you typed that He was a load of crap, even though that could also be considered a bad thing (maybe not on the same level, but still). And you probably wouldn't want Him to. Because then what would be the point?

Trust me, having spent 6 or 7 years with the Fire Department, I've seen plenty of instances where God could have intervened and didn't. I've also seen instances where it was my feeling He did.

But, that's for my belief. I'm not a Christian so I can judge others. If you want to believe that God is evil, it's your free will and right to do that. In my mind, it's between you and Him, and to you, it might between you and, well, you.

So, don't talk to me about God not caring. I've held 4 year olds with crushed tracheas in my arms and watched them die, not being able to do anything for them. I've done CPR on people until my arms cried to stop, and it still didn't save them.

And yet, I still believe in a caring God.
Permalink Cory Foy 
January 5th, 2006
>>And yet, I still believe in a caring God.
Why? That's fucking insane.
Permalink Star Wars Kid 
January 5th, 2006
...your entire post is an argument why the belief in God intervening is stupid. It's better that his hands are tied (say for the goodness of all mankind) than he comes down a picks who to save and who to let suffer and die.
Permalink Almost H. Anonymous 
January 5th, 2006
So what you're saying is that it's totally cool with you that god makes a shitty, chaotic, unjust universe, then throws us into it, gives us incomplete, contradictory, and faulty information about, then kicks back and lets us struggle?

Yeah, real fuckin' nice, there, guys. I'm liking this god fellow a lot.
Permalink Star Wars Kid 
January 5th, 2006
>> He never shows up, never talks, well in fact doesn't do jack shit that matters...

If he did show up, how would you know you weren't just insane?

I've always wondered that, if God "appeared" to me, as real as I can *possibly* imagine, and told you to kill somebody, would you do it? I'm talking you seeing the clouds part, and the wisest visage of a man you have ever seen comes down from on high, thousands of feet tall, lightning, the whole bit.

Because, it's "happened" before *cough*Abraham*cough*. I just wonder, would you think "You know, maybe I'm just schizophrenic?"

Apologies, I have no idea what the actual psychiatric classification is for people that believe they see/talk to God.
Permalink Pseudo Masochist 
January 5th, 2006
PM,
Well, if it just happened to me, that would be a reasonable explanation. But if it were part of a shared human experience, well that would be different.

What if god were not only omnipresent but actually responsive? Google stock would be worthless, true, but think of it:
A: "Naw, dood, there were no spinoffs of 'All In the Family'."
B:"God?"
G:"There were in fact two spinoffs from 'All In the Family', 'The Jeffersons' and 'Archie's Place', the last of which really sucked hard."
B:"Woot! Thanks, God."
G:"No problem."
Permalink Star Wars Kid 
January 5th, 2006
Why is it wrong to have words for things that may or may not exist?

Would you like to be without Superman?

Would you like to speak a language where there were concepts you couldn't express, such as freedom.

This is a poor troll.
Permalink Simon Lucy 
January 5th, 2006
WTF troll? I'm serious.
Naw, the problem is that I'm too real for y'all. I'm making you nervous 'cos you're all full of shit.
Permalink Star Wars Kid 
January 5th, 2006
<Professor Skinner voice on>

But what about the children?

</off>
Permalink sharkfish 
January 5th, 2006
"your entire post is an argument why the belief in God intervening is stupid. It's better that his hands are tied (say for the goodness of all mankind) than he comes down a picks who to save and who to let suffer and die"

I'm not sure who that was a reply to, but I'll take it as mine. ;)

I didn't say anything about God picking and choosing. He doesn't. I believe He loves everyone the same. But, your concept of having His hands ties relates to by free will. I guess in a way He ties His own hands to give us free will, in the same way a parent ties their hands by letting their child go to a party by themselves.

Free will comes with consequences, and its those consequences that are what is painful. Be careful what you ask for, etc, etc? Mankind got free will, and we have to live with that.
Permalink Cory Foy 
January 5th, 2006
"Naw, the problem is that I'm too real for y'all. I'm making you nervous 'cos you're all full of shit."

Too real?

What research have you done into the Bible, or the historical things going on around that time? What about other religions (for example, what significance is it that Mohammed got the word from the angel Gabriel?) What about non-canonical gospels? What impact did Rome have on the Bible? Why is Christmas on the 25th?

My respect is reserved for those who challenge the faith based on research they've done, not some vague belief that God is bad because He doesn't act how one person thinks He should.

Not saying your arguments aren't valid. But, if you want to argue that you are "too real" then at least have some research under your belt to discuss it with.

And, if you disagree with that, why should I think you are "too real"?
Permalink Cory Foy 
January 5th, 2006
>>Mankind got free will, and we have to live with that.
What's the point? God has kind of experiment going on? Why did he make us? So that we could figure out why he made us?

No, this shit is all pointless. Basically, when you say 'God loves us' that doesn't mean anything, because god does not act in any way consistent with what humans mean when they say 'love'. Moreover, if god loved us, don't you think he'd at least do us the favor of making his existence obvious? That doesn't seem like to much to ask, and yet ... And people will go to extraordinary lengths to try to explain this curious oversight away. "God wants us to have faith." "We are here to learn." Blah blah blah.

It's all bullshit. This has nothing to do with the semantic richness of the English language. This has everything to do with grown adults acting like children, believing in fairy tales... beleiving in something that *makes no sense*.
Permalink Star Wars Kid 
January 5th, 2006
Oh, I'll admit that I've been internet-y so far. But rest assured I am a *scholar* of the Bible, sir.

No, seriously. I know my shit.
Permalink Star Wars Kid 
January 5th, 2006
SWK, if God showed himself to us, would we truely be able to live our lives with free will again? If you knew for 100% certain that there was a god, and that if you sinned he would be mad and you could potentially be punished forever, would you ever do anything bad? This will sound like poor reasoning to you, but I think a god not showing himself would be an essential aspect of providing free will.
Permalink Phil 
January 5th, 2006
>>This will sound like poor reasoning to you

You're god-damned right it does. Let's try:
If the exstence of the government were obvious, would you have free will as regards wheter or not to break the law? If you *knew* you'd go to prison for shooting that fat barkeep?

Like shooting fish in a barrel. You feelin' all right, Phil? Usually you're better than this.
Permalink Star Wars Kid 
January 5th, 2006
"I'm not sure who that was a reply to, but I'll take it as mine. ;)"

Yes, it was. A few posts got put inbetween.

"I didn't say anything about God picking and choosing."

Sorry, I read this: "I've also seen instances where it was my feeling He did." as meaning basically just that. This entire thread is about miracles -- in other words, God picking, choosing, and intervening.

"I guess in a way He ties His own hands to give us free will, in the same way a parent ties their hands by letting their child go to a party by themselves."

That's my take on it.
Permalink Almost H. Anonymous 
January 5th, 2006
>Oh, I'll admit that I've been internet-y so far. But
>rest assured I am a *scholar* of the Bible, sir.

>No, seriously. I know my shit.

Ok, but it's a little harder to swallow when you say:


>Moreover, if god loved us, don't you think he'd at least
>do us the favor of making his existence obvious? That
>doesn't seem like to much to ask, and yet ... And people
>will go to extraordinary lengths to try to explain this
>curious oversight away. "God wants us to have faith."
>"We are here to learn." Blah blah blah.

In the New Testament, Thomas doesn't believe that Jesus returned, and so Jesus lets him put his hand in His wound. Why? Because some people need more than blind faith. I understand that.

But, there is historical evidence of the existance of Jesus. Some people may say that it only points that He was a scholar or profit, but its there.

If I may, what have you seen in your studies to make the statement that all of the research that has been done is "crap"?
Permalink Cory Foy 
January 5th, 2006
"Sorry, I read this: "I've also seen instances where it was my feeling He did." as meaning basically just that. This entire thread is about miracles -- in other words, God picking, choosing, and intervening. "

Gotcha. I didn't mean to come across that way. I meant that it was my feeling that those instances were God working, not that those were instances were God had decided to work.

But it sounds like we agree, even if the terminology is a bit different.
Permalink Cory Foy 
January 5th, 2006
"If the exstence of the government were obvious, would you have free will as regards wheter or not to break the law? If you *knew* you'd go to prison for shooting that fat barkeep?"

Actually, you make a good argument there. Knowledge of the existance of God won't necessarily stop people from having Free will, because He would still be giving it to us. The challenge becomes when He doesn't give free will because He has to step in to "bad" situations.
Permalink Cory Foy 
January 5th, 2006
"If you *knew* you'd go to prison for shooting that fat barkeep?"

Um yes...and thats why i don't murder people or break any other laws. To relate to the other thread, if the government didn't exist and I wasn't scared of it, I sure as hell wouldnt be paying so many taxes :)
Permalink Phil 
January 5th, 2006
So thing holding you back from killing someone is fear of God and government. That's psychopathic.
Permalink Almost H. Anonymous 
January 5th, 2006
If knowing factually that God exists measn you can't have free will, then does that mean that all those who talk to God and "know God" are incapable of free will? Why or why not? What's the logic? Or is it that the idea comforts you, the idea that God doesn't show himself because he *can't* show himself and give us a free will. Yeah that's its, that why we don't see him. Because his infinite goodness prevents it.

Phil, do you see how you are grasping at illogic? You want to believe so badly, I did too. But you are lying to yourself, and you are coming up with arguments based in human emotion, not rational thought. Things that make you feel better, but don't really make sense when examined.
Permalink ronk! 
January 5th, 2006
Okay, for the 'existance'{sic} of Jesus:
Show me the money, bro. The romans left no records of the cat. The so-called 'references' in Josephus are forgeries, and have been recognized as such for centuries. Pliny? He didn't mention Christ, only Christians, and moreover he mentioned that he tortured one into confessing that she ate babies.

The bible itself is sick joke. We can go point for point, but I'll start with some of my favorites:
Jesus did miracles? BFD. So did several others. He wasn't the first... he wasn't even the first to rise from the dead. Even the Egyptian mages were turning staffs into snakes.
Jesus is supposed to be the messiah, which means that he needs to be a descendant of David, but they could only cook it up along Mary's line. Sorry, that shit don't wash, as matriarchal descent wasn't how they rolled back then.
Here's a fun excercise: read the bible and count how many times it says point-blank that the messiah will not come from Galilee. Here's a hint: it's more than zero.
Permalink Star Wars Kid 
January 5th, 2006
If him showing himself negates the possibility of free will, then I would have thought his mere existence would have the same effect? If he's there then surely it makes no odds whether you know it or not? And even if there was some sort of difference between knowing and not knowing, surely believing in him in itself would remove your free will?

(God or no god, I believe free will is an illusion anyway.)
Permalink Mat Hall 
January 5th, 2006
Look, I wasn't trying to jump into this debate because I don't care if anyone believes in a god or not. I personally believe there is a God, only because I can fathom no other explaination as to why we are here. I'm not trying to sell anyone on any particular god either. I don't believe he intervenes in any way, not for your dying grandma or the miners. You are correct in what you say that someone who believes in god 100%, and does everything He says out of fear does not have free will. However, as long as there is some doubt, Man as a whole has free will. ronk! Why do you care so much about convincing others of your beliefs and belittling theirs?
Permalink Phil 
January 5th, 2006
>>Look, I wasn't trying to jump into this debate...
Oh, so it was an accident that you posted. I get it.
Permalink Star Wars Kid 
January 5th, 2006
"I personally believe there is a God, only because I can fathom no other explaination as to why we are here."

Ummm.. so how does belief in God give you an explanation as to why we are here?!? If someone could answer that question I might come around to believing in God. However, I don't see how it makes our existance (or the entire universe) any less mysterious.
Permalink Almost H. Anonymous 
January 5th, 2006
I was just putting a possible explanation out there, and thus there is no reason to refute me personally. I'm not taking your or Marks side, thats all.
Permalink Phil 
January 5th, 2006
"Jesus is supposed to be the messiah, which means that he needs to be a descendant of David, but they could only cook it up along Mary's line. Sorry, that shit don't wash, as matriarchal descent wasn't how they rolled back then."

Uh, Joseph was a descendant of David, not Mary.
Permalink Cory Foy 
January 5th, 2006
"Ummm.. so how does belief in God give you an explanation as to why we are here?!? "

Because everything is too perfect for me to believe it was an accident. We have a perfect tilt of our planet, perfect rotation around the sun, perfect quantity of water, perfect means of distributing this water throughout the globe, perfect food chain, perfect location on the galaxy, etc..

Look, you can call me a simpleton, obviously you caring liberals like to mock other people's religeous beliefs, thats cool, but I'm not trying to convince you of anything here, thats just my own personal belief.
Permalink Phil 
January 5th, 2006
I agree with you Matt, free will is largely an illusion. Humans generally don't possess a true free will. We are primarily social animals and are very concerned about our standing in our social group. We very much limit our actions to that which will not decrease our standing in our communities in which we participate. We typically do this without even thinking, we just do what is "right". And when we do "wrong", we feel guilt and remorse. Those that do not, are generally considered to be sociopaths, and healthy societies are the one that are tightly knit and abhor anti-social behaviour.
Permalink ronk! 
January 5th, 2006
The Messiah must be a physical descendant of David (Rom. 1:3, Acts 2:30). Jesus does not meet this requirement since his genealogies in Matt. 1 and Luke 3 show he descended from David through Joseph, who was not his natural father (your friend, the Virgin Birth). So they had to trace his "spiritual" descent from Mary.

Like I said, crap.
Permalink Star Wars Kid 
January 5th, 2006
>>Look, you can call me a simpleton
Simpleton. Done and done.

Caring liberals? I'm a mean motherfucker. I don't give a damn for the feelings or opinions of fools. But bullshit is bullshit, and conservatives are more full of it than anyone else (at the moment). Ah, why bother...
Permalink Star Wars Kid 
January 5th, 2006
That so didn't answer my question! You answered a lot of why's but certainly not the main one! How does believing on God explain why we exist?!?

"Because everything is too perfect for me to believe it was an accident."

Bullshit. Nothing here is perfect.. a lot of things that are just good enough. Originally, the air was originally entirely carbon-monoxide -- hardly perfect for humans -- until the plant-life got around to it.

"We have a perfect tilt of our planet, perfect rotation around the sun, perfect quantity of water, perfect means of distributing this water throughout the globe, perfect food chain, perfect location on the galaxy, etc.."

Of course, if any of these factors were different we'd be breathing methane at a comfortable 200C wondering about the perfect tilt of planet, the perfect rotation around the sun, the perfect quantity of methane and argon, etc.

This argument as been done to death. There is no perfection in our situation -- we are what we are because of where we are. We exist at all because we happen to be on a planet with acceptable conditions -- that doesn't mean much.
Permalink Almost H. Anonymous 
January 5th, 2006
"The Messiah must be a physical descendant of David (Rom. 1:3, Acts 2:30). Jesus does not meet this requirement since his genealogies in Matt. 1 and Luke 3 show he descended from David through Joseph, who was not his natural father (your friend, the Virgin Birth). So they had to trace his "spiritual" descent from Mary."

No, Joseph was considered to be his human father:

"(Rom 1:1-3 NIV) Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God-- {2} the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures {3} regarding his Son, /who as to his human nature was a descendant of David/,"
Permalink Cory Foy 
January 5th, 2006
What the fuck AHA, do you think I can just randomly prove God exists beyond a shadow of a doubt right here on this internet forum? Obviously I can't give you any answer you would believe or everyone would belief in God.  Just sharing my personal belief, I don't care if you agree or not.
Permalink Phil 
January 5th, 2006
Joseph, even if he was a direct physical descendant of David, cannot count according to both Matthew and Luke, since the messiah is manifested as a physical and not an adopted son, if indeed Joseph ever adopted Jesus. There is no evidence in the NT that Joseph ever adopted Jesus as his son. Peter and Paul's claim that Jesus was the son of David according to the flesh is thus invalidated by the virgin birth story as told by Matthew and Luke. (Matt 1:18-23; Luke 1:30-34)

But I see what's going on here. Biblicists have been arguing this one for centuries. I'm not likely to convince you of anything. Freakin' children dying in your arms didn't convince you, how can I top that?
Permalink Star Wars Kid 
January 5th, 2006
>>do you think I can just randomly prove God exists beyond a shadow of a doubt right here on this internet forum?

No, it's that theists have had FOREVER to prove that he does, and have ALWAYS failed. You have to admit you've got a really crappy record on that score.
Permalink Star Wars Kid 
January 5th, 2006
"What the fuck AHA, do you think I can just randomly prove God exists beyond a shadow of a doubt right here on this internet forum?"

That's not what I asked. You said:

"I personally believe there is a God, only because I can fathom no other explaination as to why we are here."

I ask the question again: how does a belief in God give you an explanation to why we are here?!? It's a simple question. It follows right from what you said right there. I'm just following up on that.

If God doesn't give you an explanation for why we are here then you must have a different reason for believing in God.
Permalink Almost H. Anonymous 
January 5th, 2006
"But I see what's going on here. Biblicists have been arguing this one for centuries. I'm not likely to convince you of anything."

Maybe not, and I might not be able to convince you of anything. But I appreciate taking the time to share the viewpoint you have. It's like a good QA session, it reveals weak points in my own knowledge and things I need to do more research on.

"Freakin' children dying in your arms didn't convince you, how can I top that?"

Well, the central discussion was around free will and God arbitrarily stepping in without giving up free will. I haven't seen you give any attempt at explaining how God would be able to do both.
Permalink Cory Foy 
January 5th, 2006
"I ask the question again: how does a belief in God give you an explanation to why we are here?!?"

Your asking why...ok I guess I meant "how" we are here more then why. But my theory as to "why" is that assuming such a thing as an omnipresent God exists that can create matter out of nothing, he would create us for the same reason we create children. To have someone to love, love us, and model in our image. We want our children to love us, but we cannot force them to.
Permalink Phil 
January 5th, 2006
And thus man made God in his own image, and saw it was good.
Permalink ronk! 
January 5th, 2006
"Well, the central discussion was around free will and God arbitrarily stepping in without giving up free will. I haven't seen you give any attempt at explaining how God would be able to do both."
Fair enough. Not that you made anything approaching a convincing argument that God could NOT do both, but whatever. Let's think:
A child is born in a village. A village underneath a volcano. Volcano erupts, child is boiled alive, then dies. The end.

Free will? Where does it fit into this scenario? Nowhere, bro. Oh, sure the *parents* can choose where to habitate, but the kid's got zero say in the manner, and he gets killed all the same.

Is this a stupid argument? Of course it is. Because that's what you're reduced to--absuridty--when you start thinking crazy ideas like 'a loving god'.

Simply put: If god is good, god does not exist. If god exists, god is not good.
Permalink Star Wars Kid 
January 5th, 2006
ronk!,
Aqualung!
Permalink Star Wars Kid 
January 5th, 2006
Hey Phil,

That's a good 'why' but it doesn't help me believe in God. It changes the 'why' but it doesn't really answer it. Why does God exist? Why does the universe exist (assuming God is in it)? The only reason it seems is to create us. So now I've come full circle and gained nothing.
Permalink Almost H. Anonymous 
January 5th, 2006
Like I said, i'm the wrong person to answer that, and your in the wrong place. If you truely want a better answer, go talk to a pastor sometime.
Permalink Phil 
January 5th, 2006
"Fair enough. Not that you made anything approaching a convincing argument that God could NOT do both, but whatever."

My argument was that by choosing when to step in and when not to it by definition removes free will. Yes, a child died, but that's not the end of that. What about the other children that were saved because of that child's death. Borders dangerously close to the whole "hero" concept.

In other words, who are we to say that the child's death was bad? Why is death bad? *We* don't like the concept of dying, but it is a perfectly natural thing that happens.

For example, why doesn't God save the rabbit that runs out in front of a person's car? What about the starvation of animals when their food source is depleted?

In other words, nothing bad should ever happen. But that's not the way it is. If we didn't have free will, we wouldn't have a life.

So, my position is that my introducing saving points, you have to necessarily introduce them for all, otherwise you are picking and choosing.
Permalink Cory Foy 
January 5th, 2006
"Yes, a child died, but that's not the end of that. What about the other children that were saved because of that child's death."
What? Where are you going with this one?

"So, my position is that my introducing saving points, you have to necessarily introduce them for all, otherwise you are picking and choosing."
So? I never said I had a problem with picking and choosing.

What's funny about this is that essentially, we agree: God does not intervene in human affairs. I'm of the opinion that it's because god is a fiction, while you believe it for reason (the convoluted nature of such is worthy of Aquinas!). But we agree.

Isn't that funny? And I've had such a good time arguing with you. Really, it's been fun.
Permalink Star Wars Kid 
January 5th, 2006
The only one who disagrees here is Warner. Of course, he's been absent for most of the discussion.
Permalink Almost H. Anonymous 
January 5th, 2006
I wonder, Phil and Cory, can you admit that you believe not because you have any objective proof to Gods existance, but you believe because you *want* to believe in his existance?
Permalink ronk! 
January 5th, 2006
"I wonder, Phil and Cory, can you admit that you believe not because you have any objective proof to Gods existance, but you believe because you *want* to believe in his existance?"

Absolutely. In the absense of all other logical data, its certaintly easier and more comfortable to believe in what you "feel".  I never claim to have any objective proof of Gods existance besides life, our sentience, and the universe, and things I have experienced and felt which of course are all in doubt. If physical proof were shown to me about how these came into existence (ie we evolved some acids into a sentient being in a lab, or created matter out of nothing) then at least my personal reasons for belief would go out the door. It frankly seems like quite a depressing world to not believe in God though.
Permalink Phil 
January 5th, 2006
Good answer Phil. You are intellectually honest about your reasons, most aren't.

> It frankly seems like quite a depressing world to not believe in God though.

You'd think so, but I feel much better about things now than I did as a theist. I also feel a sense of urgency too, that existence is fleeting, things aren't predetermined and we had better watch our collective asses because the universe can swallow us whole and not even hiccup. I find the world to be much more interesting this way.
Permalink ronk! 
January 5th, 2006
"I also feel a sense of urgency too, that existence is fleeting, things aren't predetermined and we had better watch our collective asses because the universe can swallow us whole and not even hiccup"

*shrug* I feel the same way, but only because heaven sounds boring to me. But at least I only agreed "til death do us part" so i'll totally be hooking up in heaven, so thats something.
Permalink Phil 
January 5th, 2006
Perhaps Douglas Adams, author of THHTGTG, wrote it better: (from my memory)

"I refuse to prove that I exist", says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But", says Man, "the Babel Fish is a dead give-away, isn't it? Nothing so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance. It proves you exist, therefore you don't. QED."

"Oh dear", says God, "I hadn't though of that." and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

"Oh that was easy", says Man, who goes on to prove that black is white, and gets killed on the next zebra crossing.
Permalink Brad Thomas 
January 5th, 2006
"*shrug* I feel the same way, but only because heaven sounds boring to me."

You don't honestly believe in heaven do you?

[g,d,r]
Permalink Almost H. Anonymous 
January 5th, 2006
"I wonder, Phil and Cory, can you admit that you believe not because you have any objective proof to Gods existance, but you believe because you *want* to believe in his existance?"

Absolutely. Phil said it better than I could.

And, SWK, it was fun. Thanks for a good debate. Going home now.
Permalink Cory Foy 
January 5th, 2006
can i take my iPod to heaven?
Permalink Dan Denman 
January 5th, 2006

This topic was orginally posted to the off-topic forum of the
Joel on Software discussion board.

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