Sanding our assholes with 150 grit.

Lessons from a bad landing

a) Everyone is an expert at designing airports. All landing accidents would be solved if all runways were infinitely long, and infinitely wide. Oh, and made of a nice comfortable rubber.

b) Everyone is a judge of what pilots and controllers should or shouldn't do. If the landing goes bad, the controllers and pilots are idiots. If, on the other hand, they are delayed in any way, then those pussy pilots and controllers should ignore the blizzard and land or launch the damn plane!

c) People in an incident, even when there's 300 of them, expect personal and priority service to their every whim. Don't bring me no cold bottled water, damnit, I want a orange pekoe tea! There were several hilarious articles in the paper today detailing the outrage about a lack of warm beverages, or about having to sit in a bus for 20 minutes (we're talking uninjured individuals).

Sometimes I'm amazed that reporters try to spin a story out of these petty complaints, and instead don't say "Are you frickin' serious?"
Permalink Dennis Forbes 
August 4th, 2005
"Are you frickin serious" doesn't sell newspapers though.
Permalink Flasher T 
August 4th, 2005
I bet it would.
Permalink muppet 
August 4th, 2005
I think that after having been through a traumatising experience like a plane crash, a cup of tea isn't too much to ask, maybe with a couple of digestive biscuits or a jammy dodger... In a crisis you can't beat a good cuppa!
Permalink Mat Hall 
August 4th, 2005
More airplane rules:

1. Every takeoff is optional. Every landing is mandatory.

2. If you push the stick forward, the houses get bigger. If you pull the stick back, they get smaller. That is, unless you keep pulling the stick all the way back, then they get bigger again.

3. Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous.

4. It's always better to be down here wishing you were up there, than up there wishing you were down here.

5. The ONLY time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.

6. The propeller is just a big fan in front of the plane used to keep the pilot cool. When it stops, you can actually watch the pilot start sweating.

7. When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No one has ever collided with the sky.

8. A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great' landing is one after which they can use the plane again.

9. Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself.

10. You know you've landed with the wheels up if it takes full power to taxi to the ramp.

11. The probability of survival is inversely proportional to the angle of arrival. Large angle of arrival, small probability of survival and vice versa.

12. Never let an aircraft take you somewhere your brain didn't get to five minutes earlier.

13. Stay out of clouds. The silver lining everyone keeps talking about might be another airplane going in the opposite direction. Reliable sources also report that mountains have been known to hide out in clouds.

14. Always try to keep the number of landings you make equal to the number of take offs you've made.

15. There are three simple rules for making a smooth landing. Unfortunately no one knows what they are.

16. You start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck.

17. Helicopters can't fly; they're just so ugly the earth repels them.

18. If all you can see out of the window is ground that's going round and round and all you can hear is commotion coming from the passenger compartment, things are not at all as they should be.

19. In the ongoing battle between objects made of aluminum going hundreds of miles per hour and the ground going zero miles per hour, the ground has yet to lose.

20. Good judgment comes from experience. Unfortunately, the experience usually comes from bad judgment.

21. It's always a good idea to keep the pointy end going forward as much as possible.

22. Keep looking around. There's always something you've missed.

23. Remember, gravity is not just a good idea. It's the law. And it's not subject to repeal.

24. The three most useless things to a pilot are the altitude above you, runway behind you, and a tenth of a second ago.
Permalink Cory Foy 
August 4th, 2005
25. In two-engine planes, the second engine is the one that takes you from the place where the first engine failed to the crash site.
Permalink Joel Spolsky 
August 4th, 2005
Well they apparently were provided with coffee, but some specifically wanted tea immediately. When emergency crews met them near the plane, one guy complained that they offered cold water (it was 32C and super humid) rather than warm beverages. We're talking right near the crash site. This guy drew a little complaint diagram detailing where he was outraged with cold beverages and bus waits.

In many situations like that, where a group has been inconvenienced, a group mentality sets in where there is a belief that the entire world has come to a stop and is catering to their whims. There isn't the appreciation that this is not a normal event for anyone, and things are not normal with tens of thousands of angered customers, a closed airport, and a flaming aircraft hulk on the tarmac.

One other complainer said that the regional police, who were purportedly "writing on tattered pieces of paper" (you know, like a police notebook) rather than "computers", made everyone write their seat number on a card, and they then took pictures of them with their card. The customer claimed, derisively, that the police said that this was for "anti-terrorist purposes". What utter nonsense, and more likely a bunch of griping and commisserating passengers, angry that their tea hasn't arrived, started talking amongst themselves and bitching about why their photo was being taken (which was for pretty obvious reasons, and was efficiently put in place immediately), imagined up some conspiracy about how they were being inconvenienced.
Permalink Dennis Forbes 
August 4th, 2005
I haven't followed the crash that closely, so forgive me if this is a stupid question - Dennis, in your armchair quarterbacking of the reactions of passengers who have just exited a flaming aircraft, have you evaluated and ruled out "shock"?

And for Cory, I always heard that the third useless thing was "fuel in the truck back at the airport" but I defer to your longer, more humorous list. :)

Philo
Permalink Philo 
August 4th, 2005
`Dennis, in your armchair quarterbacking of the reactions of passengers who have just exited a flaming aircraft, have you evaluated and ruled out "shock"?'

Given that some people are quite regularly malcontent bitchers, I think shock is too easy of an excuse. Furthermore these aren't being presented as random comments, they're being presented as "lessons". One elderly French woman said that this was her first visit to Canada, and she "doesn't like it one bit!". Yeah, the flaming wreckage would lean me that way too.

Plenty of other passengers, by the way, thought they were treated wonderfully given the conditions (maybe that's just shock too), and were understanding that planes don't normally go flying off the runway.
Permalink Dennis Forbes 
August 4th, 2005
Errr, I guess planes do normally go flying off the runway, but during takeoff rather than landings.
Permalink Dennis Forbes 
August 4th, 2005
3) more an indication of the type of customer this particular flight path garners than a general one...
Permalink Kenny 
August 4th, 2005
I think it's funny that you're complaining about people being instant experts regarding aircraft landings, but it's okay for you to be an instant expert in what they were thinking and their reaction to stressful situations.

Philo
Permalink Philo 
August 4th, 2005
Not just anybody can land a plane well, but anybody can be *in* a plane when it lands.
Permalink Aaron F Stanton 
August 4th, 2005
Keep in mind that this was an Air *FRANCE* flight.
Permalink Jared 
August 4th, 2005
I'm making no assumptions about what they were thinking or how in shock they were - I'm making comments about specific statements made by a small subset of the passengers, and used by some parts of the media to find a villain (because there always has to be a villain). Not having a warm beverage beside a crash site is pretty frickin' high on the ridiculous scale, and just because it was stated by an elderly woman who just left a flaming wreckage doesn't make it any more palatable.
Permalink Dennis Forbes 
August 4th, 2005
Obviously they are supposed to boil the water using the flames on the fuselage.
Permalink Aaron F Stanton 
August 4th, 2005
So there's this theory about responding to stressful events. See, the big problem with things like airplane crashes, random shootings, being raped - it's a violent event in your life that you have absolutely no control over.

One way our consciousness seeks to regain balance is by seizing *any* opportunity to reassert control over our surroundings, no matter how silly it may seem to others. Have you seen an accident victim straighten their clothes, or someone who's lost their house arrange a few bric-a-brac in what's left? They are simply seeking a way to think "fuck. It's all gone and there was nothing I could do about it. Well, at least my tie is going to be straight or the end table is going to be neat."

The proper response to people in this state is to do what you can to ease them. If this old lady was asking for (or throwing a fit about) getting tea, someone with some authority should have said gently "I'm sorry, ma'am, we don't have any tea handy, but we'll see if we can get you some, okay?"

Takes five seconds, and now she's regained a bit of balance in her life.

I realize, of course, that may not be as much fun as making light of someone who's been through a life-altering experience, so don't let me slow you down, Dennis.

Philo
Permalink Philo 
August 4th, 2005
How lame, Philo. Sometimes you reach a little far to play the Mr. Good Guy act.
Permalink Dennis Forbes 
August 4th, 2005
If the lady didn't like Canada from ending up in an aircraft in flames she'll be even less impressed going through immigration at Toronto.
Permalink Simon Lucy 
August 4th, 2005
I was gonna say that, too. Philo the compassionate. But then maybe he or someone close to him went through something very much like this and didn't behave to well coming out?
Permalink Jeff Barton 
August 4th, 2005
>> If the lady didn't like Canada from ending up in an aircraft in flames she'll be even less impressed going through immigration at Toronto.

Pearson Airport is a disaster. The last time I went throught there, I had to retrace my steps to a couple of times to find my way to the connection for the other terminal. Once I found it, no help to any signage, I had to wait in line for a shuttle bus, whereupon the shuttle driver _got lost_ between the terminals. Fortunately, I didn't have a tight connection.
Permalink Mongo 
August 4th, 2005
Some of the old terminals there are just terrible and decrepit, but the new terminal, and in coming years the replacements for the existing ones, really is gorgeous. Of course in 20 years the new one will look tired and decrepit.
Permalink Dennis Forbes 
August 4th, 2005
I'm with Philo on this one. If you expect people in shock to behave rationally and to just sort of hang about without complaint then you're living in some sort of bizarre fantasy world...
Permalink Mat Hall 
August 4th, 2005
I was thinking more of the attitudes you find at immigration rather than the rather weird route you take to get through it. It is a nice place to have breakfast though at whatever that walk through bar type place is called.
Permalink Simon Lucy 
August 4th, 2005
I agree with you that a bunch of the passengers were spoiled babies complaining about pissy things after barely surviving an air wreck.

I agree that it would sell more papers if reporters mocked and ridiculed the spoiled babies instead of humoring them.
Permalink Rich Rogers 
August 4th, 2005
So if a passenger came off the plane, declared that only the One True Race should be allowed to survive, and declared a holy war to exterminate the non-believers, and the media reported this soberly as a "lesson to be learned", Philo and Rich would be eating it up.

Give me a break, and what a couple of situational bleeding hearts. A stupid statement from anyone, whether in "shock" or not, is a stupid statement.

Of course, to those not reading looking for an excuse to try to prop themselves up on their soapbox of moral righteousness and compassion, it is pretty clear that my primary gripe is with certain segments of the media that legitimizes bullshit complaints.
Permalink Dennis Forbes 
August 4th, 2005
"A stupid statement from anyone, whether in "shock" or not, is a stupid statement."

Yes, a stupid statement IS a stupid statement, but they're in shock so it shouldn't be held against them...
Permalink Mat Hall 
August 4th, 2005
Right, it should have disappeared into the ether of history, not taken as a baton to prove how much "we suck" by certain media elements.
Permalink Dennis Forbes 
August 4th, 2005
Ah, I see now, you're upset because the complaints were directed at YOU. Now your pissy fit that some people who had a terrifying ordeal weren't in the best possible mood makes more sense...

Moron.
Permalink Mat Hall 
August 4th, 2005
Right up until his most recent post, Dennis totally owned this thread. You are all a bunch of wankers. Dennis had it right.
Permalink muppet 
August 4th, 2005
I'm sure once these people have got over the shock they'll actually be grateful, but you can't blame them for being upset right after being in a plane crash. If you're going to have a go at anyone, have a go at the newspapers for interviewing people who were in shock and probably weren't thinking straight at the time.

Panic, shock, fear, they all make people do stupid things, but that's because those emotions hand control over to the less restrained parts of the brain, and anything people say or do during those periods should not be taken to heart -- it wasn't them saying or doing it, it was the remnants of their prehistoric ancestors, and I can't see that getting uppity because evolution hasn't seen fit to remove the more uncontrollable parts of the human anatomy is the greatest course of action to take, but hey, if that's how you deal with it, then go right ahead...
Permalink Mat Hall 
August 4th, 2005
I've been in plenty of accidents and I never once demanded a cup of tea and then bitched to the news media that I didn't get it.
Permalink muppet 
August 4th, 2005
But did they bitch to the news, or did the news come to them while they were still in shock? (And whenever I've been in an accident, providing I'm still capable of doing so one of the first things I'll ask for is a cup of tea, but with Britain being a civilised nation there's normally one being offered to you anyway. :)
Permalink Mat Hall 
August 4th, 2005
Have you ever heard that people are like cups? When they get shaken, stuff spills out, and then everyone can see what they're full of. I think it's our frivolous culture that grooms people to behave this way, in times of shock or not.
Permalink Jeff Barton 
August 4th, 2005
Hugely insightful comment: different people react differently to stress. (Film at 11!)

It's been almost 4 years since an Air Transat plane was mis-fueled on a flight from Toronto to Lisbon and ran out 15 minutes away from the Azores. There was a great documentary about it - how the pilot managed to glide in and land, even circling around once - about a year later.

One of the people they talked to was a middle aged woman travelling alone and she talked about how in the last 10 minutes or so she was thinking of her family, her children, and had basically come to a peaceful acceptance of her impending death.

Then they talked to a younger guy who was travelling with a friend, and he described how he kept saying "we're all gonna die, we're all gonna die," and his friend kept saying "shut up, shut up." After they landed and evacuated the plane, the same "we're all gonna die" guy described how he took off and kept running until he was over the hill and probably a kilometer away...
Permalink Ward 
August 4th, 2005
I'm not following the response to my post, maybe you misunderstood it.

I am advocating the media mock rather than coddle whiney babies.
Permalink Rich Rogers 
August 4th, 2005
What I most remember about that is the nonsensical focus the media put on the fact that the pilot was busted for transporting marijuana once. It had no relevance to the event, but that is how the media, based presumably on consumer demand, works.
Permalink Dennis Forbes 
August 4th, 2005
Sorry if I misread you Rich. It sounded a bit over the top, and I presumed it to be sarcasm.
Permalink Dennis Forbes 
August 4th, 2005
"Philo the compassionate."

OMG. Are you and Dennis actually suggesting that it's a negative character trait to care about other people?

"But then maybe he or someone close to him went through something very much like this and didn't behave to well coming out?"

[shrug] I've been in a large number of high-stress situations. I've also put people through a number of high-stress situations. I had to handle a division of 50 men when three of them (including two senior fire team members) were killed in a fire.

I guess my personal experience closest to this situation would be when I was hit by a car while riding my bike. I was thrown about 20ft and landed on my head.

Quickly now - #1 rule when dealing with a potential head or neck injury?

Right - don't move the injured person. I've been through a LOT of lifesaving and triage training, enough to know that instinctively. It's second nature - you don't move an accident victim before their neck is immobilized. Ever.

So what did I do after landing on my head? Yep - got up and moved my bike out of the road, then tried to "walk it off"

Got bitched out by the paramedics for it, too.

[shrug] You just plain don't think. You react and try to put some kind of framework on what just happened so you can cope.

Philo
Permalink Philo 
August 4th, 2005
"OMG. Are you and Dennis actually suggesting that it's a negative character trait to care about other people?"

Yes, but in caring about other people, did you care about our feelings? After reading your recriminations, good friend Philo, I wept quietly in the corner, muttering tired rhetoric to the dried up cat puke I discovered. From then on all of my responses can be attributed to shock.
Permalink Dennis Forbes 
August 4th, 2005
While in college, I was once road testing a bicycle I had 'saved'. It turned out whoever road it last had run into something solid enough to just slightly bend the front fork.

I didn't know this. I was traveling down a road at about 20 miles an hour (fast, in other words) when the front wheel started wobbling. As I tried to correct it, the front wheel abruptly turned sharply (90 degrees) right.

I was left flying over the handlebars, with my right hand against my rib-cage, and my left hand flung straight out. I thought, as I flew slowly through the air, that this was not good, that this could be fatal. Actually, I thought "Shit!" as that was all I had time for.

I landed on the previously mentioned right hand, which punched me in the chest, and slid on it (pretty well balanced, actually) until I could turn the slide into a roll by tucking my right shoulder in. The result was road burns on the back of my right hand, and perhaps a cracked rib or two (I never got X-rays, naturally).

I got up and walked to the side of the road. Only then did I realize I was not breathing anymore, having thouroughly knocked my breath out. (I was quite glad to still be alive, though).

I sat down by the side of the road. I kept trying to breath, with no effect. My vision started to narrow, with a black border around the 'screen'. Finally, I got that little 'hick!' of indrawn breath that says you're going to be ok. Breathing resumed slowly at that point, and the blackness went away.

As soon as I could, I recovered the bicycle, and continued to sit there enjoying breathing. My lungs hurt if I took too deep a breath -- thus my cracked rib theory.

Once I had recovered sufficiently, I got back on the bike (I was a mile away from my dorm at this point) and SLOWLY pedaled back.

It must be my own psychology, because at no time did I get angry at the bicycle, the bicycle maker, the previous rider, or that any of my expectations had not been met. I was simply glad to have gotten out of a very dangerous situation mostly unharmed.

Having watched the plane burn on TV on Wednesday night, I would have thought the passengers would have had the same feeling. On the other hand, they WERE on an international flight from France, they HAD been on that plane quite some time, and perhaps with their relief that they had not died their expectations of service became higher.
Permalink AllanL5 
August 4th, 2005
+++It must be my own psychology, because at no time did I get angry at the bicycle, the bicycle maker, the previous rider, or that any of my expectations had not been met. I was simply glad to have gotten out of a very dangerous situation mostly unharmed.+++

You're such a wonderful human being! Kudos!
Permalink muppet 
August 4th, 2005
Back at ya!
Permalink AllanL5 
August 4th, 2005
> OMG. Are you and Dennis actually suggesting that it's a negative character trait to care about other people?

No. But what are we turning people into if they start demanding tea in stressful situations? Has social engineering gone so far as to render us completely infantile?

For those at the scene who are really in shock, fine, deal with them compassionately. But then to later encourage that behaviour by suggesting it's completely appropriate? That's just the media is doing with this, and you've bought into this pop mass-psychology.

Seriously, things look more and more like 1984 everyday.
Permalink Jeff Barton 
August 4th, 2005
>>> is the nonsensical focus the media put on the fact that the pilot was busted for transporting marijuana once.

Yeah, I still can't believe it: the guy manages to land in circumstances that everyone thought were impossible, and he gets reamed for a previous infraction.

>>> OMG. Are you and Dennis actually suggesting that it's a negative character trait to care about other people?

Screw the other people! Kill them all and let God sort them out! Death to the tea-drinkers! God-damned frogs deserve to die! Where are my freedom fries?!
Permalink Ward 
August 4th, 2005
I was the passenger in a high speed car accident once where we flipped multiple times (after a transition to gravel road, entering a large dirt cloud from the truck racing in front of us) and then flew upside-down through the air into a tree which made a 2' deep impression right behind me. We then clamboured out of the upturned car before it burned up.

The police didn't bring us any danishes (sorry, Freedom Pastries), or even a drink, but simply asked the normal investigative questions (on their "tattered pieces of paper"). Of course, given that we were perfectly healthy apart from laughable band-aid style cuts, we were given no special accord, nor did we expect any. In fact the officer dropped us off basically at one end of the city and I walked home.

A day or two later we went to a Depeche Mode concert, proud of our minor battlewounds and the tale we had to tell.

What is the point of this? Dunno, just wanted to proudly talk about the accident I was in once. Anyone wanna see pictures of the demo'd car? :-)
Permalink Dennis Forbes 
August 4th, 2005
"But what are we turning people into if they start demanding tea in stressful situations?"

English people?
Permalink Mat Hall 
August 4th, 2005
"I've been in a large number of high-stress situations. I've also put people through a number of high-stress situations. I had to handle a division of 50 men when three of them (including two senior fire team members) were killed in a fire."

What was this Philo? Was it here in the states?

Nothing more stressful then someone being trapped in a fire and not being able to reach them in spite of your training and equipment.
Permalink Cory Foy 
August 4th, 2005
Gosh, I assumed it was on board ship, during a fire, while Philo was in the Navy.

All kinds of bad things can happen then.
Permalink AllanL5 
August 4th, 2005
These kinds of events are terrible. All kinds of compassion should be provided to those going through them. But that hasn't been the problem here. We have mistaken "celebrating victimhood" for compassion. That's a bad thing, IMO.
Permalink Jeff Barton 
August 4th, 2005
It would be churlish to suggest that those complaining about the lack of tea would have come from a particular cabin class. I would guess not from First Class, nor likely from Economy or Coach. Perhaps I just spent too long in Business Class and have formed a jaundiced view.
Permalink Simon Lucy 
August 4th, 2005
LOL, thanks Dennis.

That's kind of funny that my genuine opinion (newscasters should make fun of people who are being unreasonable), which I see as being quite sensible, came across as so nutty as to be perceived as advocating the opposite in sarcasm. I guess we need emoticons for sarcasm and seriousness for those of us with such 'extreme' views...

But the making fun thing, they do it on the Daily Show and on Saturday Night, both which have better and more impartial news reporting than the big network news, right? Mocking is not so bad, if I remember right from history class the colonists would publish pamphlets that did a lot of mocking.
Permalink Rich Rogers 
August 4th, 2005
Oh and the Onion too!
Permalink Rich Rogers 
August 4th, 2005
"the pilot was busted for transporting marijuana once"

I have missed that! Is that on the TV news?

A couple of years ago, some cops shot a guy several times in the back of the head who was just a regular Joe on his way home from work. They shot him right in front of the house he owned where his pregnant wife was standing in the driveway waiting for him. The cops were unable to explain why they shot him, but in the news coverage, there were many stories about how, 15 years before, when the guy was 17, he had been busted for possesion of a small amount of cocaine.
Permalink Rich Rogers 
August 4th, 2005
"No. But what are we turning people into if they start demanding tea in stressful situations? Has social engineering gone so far as to render us completely infantile?"

My point is that everyone will react differently. One person will simply get up and walk quietly to the bus and sit down; another will start crying; that guy over there will get weird about finding the tie he left in a seat pocket; this woman here will cry because she can't find some photo (that she left in her car at home); someone will throw a fit because they're brought coffee and they asked for tea.

Believe it or not, most will react normally, thus defining what "normal" is. As you go out on the sigmas, you'll get varying types of odd or unusual behavior. This is why when there's a fatality at a school, there will be a grief counseling session (chance to observe all the children) and advice to parents to pay attention to their kids and watch for abnormal behavior.

Shock is an edge case - since we don't deal with it often the results are surprising.

By the way, it's entirely possible that the woman was just a dyed-in-the-wool bitch; I'm just trying to avoid judging her from a distance without knowing all the facts. :)

And yes, the fatalities were in my division in the 1990 fire onboard the USS Midway.
http://www.midwaysailor.com/cassiuscallender/1990fire.html

Philo
Permalink Philo 
August 4th, 2005
In other words, when there is a screw up, I think they have a policy of digging up stuff that has nothing to do with anything and defaming the victim in order to distract the public from the fact that the cops are undisciplined and out of control.
Permalink Rich Rogers 
August 4th, 2005
Simon, you are saying you think the tea people were all from business class? Do you have some good business class anecdotes?
Permalink Rich Rogers 
August 4th, 2005
No more than any other class, really - some people are assholes, some people are nice, some people are pretentious and some people treat the staff like crap.

:)

Philo
Permalink Philo 
August 4th, 2005
I love how Dennis reports pouring rain as "super humid" ;) A bit understated, perhaps?

Numerous passengers complained about the "disorganized" handling after the crash, saying that there were many different head counts and that there were no warm drinks offered to them for hours after the event. As the investigation unfolded many passengers were sitting around soaking wet and cold.
(see today's Globe and Mail - http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050804/PLANEPASS04/TPNational for one comment - this was repeated over and over on the news yesterday by a bunch of supposed passengers)

I was in a pretty serious accident last October (no injuries, both cars totalled - teenager barrelled through a red light and struck my car), so I have enough experience with shock that I wouldn't judge someone coming out of a traumatic experience too harshly. My first action was to get away from the car (many passengers talked about getting out of the airplane and then just running) Being cold and wet doesn't help!

I can really sympathize with the emergency response though. From all accounts the passengers totally scattered - some hitchhiking on the 401 to get a ride back to the airport - so getting everyone rounded up and accounted for would be a challenge.

Anyone else catch that Air France had a really bad day, though? Most news outlets are only reporting on the crash, but some were also mentioning the stowaway death in Paris (http://www.canada.com/travel/story.html?id=d75c8963-c104-43e1-a2aa-da4b0ec9df8c)

How odd.
Permalink Phibian 
August 4th, 2005
Oh - and also - this is kind of pedantic, but the actual landing was pretty good from all accounts.

The problem was that once landed, the plane didn't slow down and then plunged down a ravine.
Permalink Phibian 
August 4th, 2005
Philo, you bastard, I just wasted an hour reading stuff from that Midway site and looking at a bunch of the pictures.
Permalink Ward 
August 4th, 2005
<shudder> Fire (or Flooding) On Ships! There isn't much, that has more pucker power for those who work on them. 911 don't work and there's not a bloody place you can run to. Nothing to do except go fight it. I've seen a couple of relatively small ones ... that'll be enough thanks.
Permalink PNII 
August 4th, 2005
"There isn't much, that has more pucker power ..."
Except *anything* to do with "up in the air" of course.
Permalink PNII 
August 4th, 2005
I have a few business class anecdotes, most of them not that complimentary about me.
Permalink Simon Lucy 
August 4th, 2005
" Oh - and also - this is kind of pedantic, but the actual landing was pretty good from all accounts."

From all accounts? You must be reading different news that I've read, because half the passengers are saying that they were about to land and then suddenly thumped down (some postulating that it blew the tires), others are saying that they landed but then got air again, and so on, several using the term "rollercoaster". I've only read a few that claim that it was a normal landing followed by a failure to brake.

Of course many people aren't the greatest for that sort of observation. Half the time I've flown I was sure that something was terribly wrong, and if something did go awry I would presume that it validated my fears (no matter how unrelated and incorrect in reality).
Permalink Dennis Forbes 
August 4th, 2005
"A day or two later we went to a Depeche Mode concert..."

I would have never guessed that Dennis was gay.
Permalink  
August 4th, 2005
I like Depeche Mode, and I'm the furthest thing from gay.
Permalink muppet 
August 4th, 2005
That's not what I heard!
Permalink Hairy Bear 
August 4th, 2005
"I would have never guessed that Dennis was gay."

Depeche Mode were hardly a gay culture band, though I'm sure they had gay fans like most bands. I always found it interesting, though, that in the era people who listened to cross-dressing wanna-be-women like Poison would talk about Depeche Mode being "gay". A lot of people were in denial.

Saw them with some random bands and Nitzer Ebb, which was actually pretty good. Big arena style show in the old CNE stadium.
Permalink Dennis Forbes 
August 4th, 2005
I feel so...rejected...
Permalink Aaron F Stanton 
August 4th, 2005
"they were about to land and then suddenly thumped down"

[shrug] this happens all the time. It's not *great* but not that unusual.

Philo
Permalink Philo 
August 4th, 2005
I wonder what's the ratio of gay:bisexual:straight ?off topic threads.
Permalink Jeff Barton 
August 4th, 2005
Did you notice the fire tenders turned up in 57 seconds? This statistic reflects expected performance from teams who constantly train, stay fit and wait. The ICAO mandates standards that will progressively close an airport if not met at all times and an expected response time is just one.

Need they also be heating hot water on the way? Sheesh.
Permalink trollop 
August 4th, 2005
"Need they also be heating hot water on the way? Sheesh."

No, just treat the victims with comfort and respect. Mind you, I haven't seen anything that suggests they or any rescue workers didn't.

Philo
Permalink Philo 
August 4th, 2005
Their training covers first aid, physical fitness, firefighting systems and procedure to a degree matched only in select portions of the armed services or police.

Yes, it is possible to cart a water boiler along for a brew up - but not mandatory. Have any journalists received even the slightest instruction on how to behave at crash scenes?
Permalink trollop 
August 4th, 2005
trollop, who were you responding to?

Philo
Permalink Philo 
August 4th, 2005
I wasn't aware I had to post a response or by implication take sides but if anything it's a response to Dennis's OP. What peeves me is that the culmination of a VAST amount of organisation and training is noted in passing by journos reporting a statistic passed to them by the response team, then buried in a mass of detailed griping by tea-drinkers spurning some offered coffee. It's not the passengers' boorish behaviour - that's understandable - it's the journos'. Anyway.

I entered the slow-motion zone when a car sailed through a stop sign and clipped my front wheel leaving me travelling at the same speed in the same direction but without the bicycle I had just been riding (the shock kicked in much later).
Permalink trollop 
August 5th, 2005
&#171;I always found it interesting, though, that in the era people who listened to cross-dressing wanna-be-women like Poison would talk about Depeche Mode being "gay"&#187;

Ah, yes, but Poison were constantly singing about getting laid with women, so they couldn'y be gay, right?

Besides, as shown in Police Academy's "Blue Oyster Bar", trying to look like a woman didn't automatically mean "gay".

:)

Ok, sorry for being OT on OT.
Permalink Paulo Caetano 
August 5th, 2005
The rollercoaster term was used to describe what happened after they overshot the runway, not the landing.

The passenger interviews I saw stated that it was a normal touch down, but that the plane seemed to be coming in faster than normal. There were some reports of the lights going off before landing due to weather, but others are saying that the lights went off later. At touch down, the passengers "clapped and cheered" (the Guardian), and some passengers started to get their luggage. ``We thought we had a good landing,'' Roel Bramar, another passenger, told CNN. ``Some people were clapping.''

The official investigation also reported that the landing itself was completely normal and the voice recorder was not stressed or unusual in any way (yesterday's Citizen, I think)

It then got really bumpy, some passengers reported a sound like a tire exploding, the aircraft began swerving and flames came out of the engine.

The landing itself from all accounts was pretty normal. What they are saying now is that it was outside of the safe zone of the runway. Ordinary procedure would have been to do a go-around (and it is possible this was started and aborted).

I watched more than one news channel that evening both in French and English, but mainly Peter Mansbridge.

Later, I read several accounts (my Dad is a pilot and we have clients in the airline industry, so I was interested). Our main papers are the Globe and Mail and the Ottawa Citizen, but I also checked out the Toronto Star for obvious reasons.

Unfortunately both the Citizen and the Globe and Mail do not have accessible archives or I'd point you to some of the earlier witness reports, rather than some of the so-and-so, friend of a passenger on the plane reports that we are starting to see.
Permalink Phibian 
August 6th, 2005

This topic was orginally posted to the off-topic forum of the
Joel on Software discussion board.

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