Sanding our assholes with 150 grit.

Brazillian shot by London Yard was sitting quietly in seat

So it turns out that EVERYTHING that the London Police said was a bald faced lie, just what you'd expect from the lying British pigs. We colonialists know how it is:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/britain_bombings_brazilian

He was sitting quietly in his Subway seat when they jumped him, threw him on the ground, then shot him in the head repeatedly. The police were not chasing him and they did not shout any warnings.

But we'll hear now from all the pro-facists why the police were justified in shooting him because he had brown skin.
Permalink Rich Rogers 
August 17th, 2005
"But we'll hear now from all the pro-facists why the police were justified in shooting him because he had brown skin."

Nice strawman there. Watch out for the matches.
Permalink Dennis Forbes 
August 17th, 2005
Sadly I don't think it *is* a strawman -- I've already spoken to two such idiots today...
Permalink Mat Hall 
August 17th, 2005
Apparently this is a repost:

http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?off.9.185291.11

Care to explain why I'm an idiot? Do you feel the shooting was justified then?
Permalink Rich Rogers 
August 17th, 2005
Who said you're an idiot? I said that you presented a strawman claiming that the pro-police crowd would justify the killing, and then Mat said that there are idiots who are still justifying the killing.
Permalink Dennis Forbes 
August 17th, 2005
Couple of issues with this:

After the discussion on this sheeting last month, I finally saw a photo of the dead guy and his 'heavy winter jacket' that caused them to 'believe he was carrying a bomb'. This was a fashionable, thin denim jacket that came to the waist. Not so different from the denim jacket I wore in London in England the last time I visited. Certainly not the full length fur coat out of place type thing they were describing. Any day in Manhattan, I can see dozens of men wearing wool suits that are far more uncomfortable in summer than that denim jacket. But see, those guys are rich white dudes who are going to air conditioned legal offices in uptown.

Second thing, this is not new information that has been discovered. This is a 'leak' of the secret internal report by the police on what really happened. The report shows that they have known all along that he was not a terrorist and their was no bomb and they murdered him in cold blood, but by claiming terrorist in public, they could try to cover up their crimes. When these sorts of scandals have happened in the US (Watergate), heads roll and lots of people go to prison. Every single bobby involved in this case in England shoud go to prison because these are serious crimes they have committed. Not just the murder, but the cover up. The coverup is actually worse than the murder in terms of damage to the public trust and the ability of justice to be served.

One last thing, what sort of idiot fires a gun 8 times at a range of 12 inches and misses three shots? My neighbor's 8 year old daughter can shoot better than that.
Permalink Rich Rogers 
August 17th, 2005
OK, I now see that Mat's reference was to the predictable public reaction and not my predicting it. Thanks.
Permalink Rich Rogers 
August 17th, 2005
To see that my brown skinned thing isn't a straw man, two points:

1. Imagine he is a white anglo saxon looking gentleman with dyed black hair, a handlebar moustache, a bowler hat, a monacle, a a wool suit, with an overcoat draped over one arm and the London Times in the other hand. You going to tell me the bobbies are going to shoot this guy in the same manner? He is wearing heavy clothes in summer! Much heavier than our Brazillian 'terrorist'.

2. Before they figured out he was a Brazillian, every single press statement from the london police emphasized that he was a 'arabic looking' person. Why mention that unless they thought it was relevant to their conclusion he was a terrorist needing to be offed?
Permalink Rich Rogers 
August 17th, 2005
London was (or rather is) under the threat of another bombing given the failure just prior. Obviously being Islamic is a condition of being involved with Islamic terrorists, so it isn't surprizing that it's one of many required precursors to suspicion. Separating that out and decrying it is sorta silly. If I'm looking for a sunfish, I'll likely look underwater, but that doesn't mean that the bass is a fish.

Having said that, they initially _claimed_ to have a crapload more supporting evidence that TOGETHER with him being "Arabic" made their actions more credible. Without those other facts being true, the actions were completely unjustified and reprehensible. It looks like some people were primed to be heros.
Permalink Dennis Forbes 
August 17th, 2005
err, bass is a sunfish
Permalink Dennis Forbes 
August 17th, 2005
"Obviously being Islamic is a condition of being involved with Islamic terrorists"

Is it? It's a *likely* condition, but not an absolute requirement...
Permalink Mat Hall 
August 17th, 2005
>> One last thing, what sort of idiot fires a gun 8 times at a range of 12 inches and misses three shots? My neighbor's 8 year old daughter can shoot better than that. <<

It's a little known fact that most police officers don't shoot all that well. They carry a gun, but they seldom practice with it.

There was a traffic stop somewhere in the midwest (I think) where things went bad, and everyone started shooting. Something like 134 shots were fired, with none of them hitting anyone. I'm glad everyone was OK, but at the same time, I'm little disappointed with their performance.
Permalink example 
August 17th, 2005
There's a considerable absence of support for the shooting or the misninformation right now.
Permalink Simon Lucy 
August 17th, 2005
The major modification in the M16A2 was the addition of a "three round burst" mode, which soldiers in Vietnam were required to keep the rifle in.

...because when the choices were "single shot" or "full auto" of course they kept it on full auto. And IIRC the accuracy statistics were near zero...

Philo
Permalink Philo 
August 17th, 2005
I guess that's good news for us gun rights activists always worrying about the jackbooted federal thugs coming and having it out with us.

Still, if you profession requires you to carry a gun, it is inexcusable not to be able to know how to use it.
Permalink Rich Rogers 
August 17th, 2005
"They carry a gun, but they seldom practice with it."

In the UK, gun-toting police are the exception rather than the norm, and these particular policemen were (I believe) part of SO19, the Met's armed division. I'd have hoped that they'd be able to shoot reasonably well, and the whole "11 shots, 3 misses" suggests it might have been panic fire due to this being the first real-life incident the guy was exposed to...
Permalink Mat Hall 
August 17th, 2005
It certainly doesn't sound like one of the SAS guys attached to SO19.
Permalink Simon Lucy 
August 17th, 2005
unfortunately, it looks like an even bigger fuck up by the police than I thought at the time

what seems to have gone most wrong was the unarmed surveillance team handing over to their armed "colleagues" very very late - probably after the young guy had walked into the tube station - so the armed unit seems to have gone charging in at speed after "a suicide bomber"

even still, the guy was sitiing quietly in a seat - they even had him restrained...

I'd like to see the rambo who went in with guns blazing relieved from gun duty for - well for ever really

and maybe we need to lose the chief of the Met Police who carried on with misinformation throughout all of Friday and most of Saturday when he clearly knew what had happened

I have a huge respect for the Met Police - I think they probably do a better job of policing a huge and incredibly diverse metropolitan area than most. However, that's why I feel so bad about this incident - it really stinks of them trying out totally inappropriate new tactics

I don't want that kind of protection as I travel on the tubes thanks...
Permalink London Poster 
August 17th, 2005
In the bbc article posted in the other thread, I noticed this:

"The commission said the family "will clearly be distressed that they have received information on television concerning his death"."

The police are actually criticizing the press for releasing the truth because the family will be 'distressed' to find out that the police murdered him in cold blood.

Pretty amazing.
Permalink Rich Rogers 
August 17th, 2005
>> and the whole "11 shots, 3 misses" suggests it might have been panic fire due to this being the first real-life incident the guy was exposed to... <<

Generally, if you have a pistol drawn, it's a Bad Thing to get into a wrestling match with someone. You're much better off staying 15-20 feet back (about the distance that someone can cover in 1 second) to give you some reaction time.
Permalink example 
August 17th, 2005
It's odd how this pair of reports skirt the issue and mix in irrelevancies:
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article306614.ece
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5216839,00.html

wheras this doesn't:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,542-1739639,00.html

Even more complete coverage here (sorry, subscription):
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/the-look-of-a-terrorist-it-was-a-police-fantasy/2005/08/17/1123958125899.html

Summary:
The cop with a video camera who was to provide visuals to HQ from the suspect block of flats took a toilet break but HQ issued Code Red anyway. That's not to say anything would have been different had he been present...

RIP you poor bastard.
Permalink trollop 
August 17th, 2005
It is really hard to shoot a handgun properly - especially with a 9mm or 45. It would be pretty easy to miss 3 out of 8 shots, even at point blank range. Try it out sometime - you will know what I mean.

That said, I think this behaviour is going to get worse. I have a few ex-friends who have become police (in the states) and there are a lot of pigs just waiting for an opportunity to blow people away.

Growing up in Boston, my skater friends and I would be routinely pushed around by the police, for skateboarding. Granted what we were doing was technically criminal, but we were 15. They broke one of my friends arm in 2 places, when he tried to file a suit against the officer who did it, they intimidated his family and pretty much said that he couldn't take the single officer to court, he'd have to take the whole police force to court, and if he did that, he should consider leaving town. Whenever the cops would hassle us after that, they'd say "you don't want to end up with an arm like Rodney's, do you?" But he was lucky, at least he wasn't my other skater friend who made the mistake of being both a skateboarder and a black person. He'd routinely get threatened to be sent off to adult prison for having weed (which he didn't have, he was straightedge).

Whoops. Sorry for the rambling. In any case, cops are pretty much hired goons waiting to beat the shit out of whoever gets on their bad side. All these white people giving them more power must be mistakenly thinking they or their family is never going to get on the pigs' bad sides...
Permalink  
August 17th, 2005
"But he was lucky, at least he wasn't my other skater friend who made the mistake of being both a skateboarder and a black person. He'd routinely get threatened to be sent off to adult prison for having weed"

Well, remember - most blacks the police arrest have charges filed against them, so he was probably doing something illegal.

[tongue firmly in cheek]

Philo
Permalink Philo 
August 17th, 2005
You know the passive-aggressive comeback-in-another-thread thing is pretty lame. Just my opinion, but you seem to be quite a fan of that technique.
Permalink Dennis Forbes 
August 17th, 2005
I had a friend growing up who liked to ride his skateboard on the sidewalk of a small town in California. No tricks, just plain skating. He was a polite guy that never looked for trouble.

When I was age 9 and he was age 12, I was sitting in town watching him one day when the local sheriff came up and knocked him off the board and threw him against a brick wall and handcuffed him for illegal skating.

He cussed at the sheriff, whereupon the sheriff calmly walked to his car, withdrew a wooden baseball bat from the trunk of the car, and came back and smashed in the skull of my friend, killing him.

I watched as his body twitched violently as skull and brain leaked out. The sheriff did another blow, stilling the body. The skull was really smashed in.

The investigation showed that the sheriff was 'justified' and that his actions were 'defensive in nature'. Although  the Sheriff had threatened me, a 9 year old, not to say what happened, I told my parents anyway. They tried to get the newspaper interested but the newspaper, Sheriff's department and town judges were all the same group of good old boys network. One day at that time while we were out, we returned and my parents found a decapitated horse head lying on their bed. There were no signs of entry in the house. We got the message and moved out of town shortly thereafter.
Permalink anon this time 
August 17th, 2005
> Obviously being Islamic is a condition of being involved with Islamic terrorists, so it isn't surprizing that it's one of many required precursors to suspicion

On the other hand, having ancestors who lived in the middle east less than a thousand years ago is not a condition for being a muslim fundamentalist. There's plenty of regular looking white gentlemen who happen to believe in Allah.

There's also large numbers of people who look like they're from the middle east largely because they ercently left their homeland in order to live in a more free and tolerant society.

Today they're busy wondering just what was in the water on the day they made that decision.
Permalink  
August 17th, 2005
Holy fucking shit, anon.

That's...fucked up. I am sad to hear that.

That's an entire town that might be better off dissolved in lime and erased from the map.
Permalink Aaron F Stanton 
August 18th, 2005
Whatever the facts as to whether he was sitting down, being hased, whatever, the police officers involved obviously thought he was a terrorist. If you want to blame someone/thing for the fact that they shot him dead then you shuld blame the shoot to kill policy and the real terrorists, not the individuals.
Permalink  
August 18th, 2005
"and the real terrorists"

yeah, cause I thought my neighbour might be a terrorist, so I pulled a gun out and blew her fucking head off, turns out she wasn't but hey, its the terrorist's fault for making me think she might be.
Permalink Jesus H Christ 
August 18th, 2005
What you think is up to you. The police think that, following the terrorist acts in London, the correct policy is to shoot to kill people they think are about to blow up innocent people. I'm sorry you can't follow the logic, but even more sorry for the people you work with.
Permalink  
August 18th, 2005
"the correct policy is to shoot to kill people they think are about to blow up innocent people"

Yeah, that's a great *theory*, but as it appears the threshold for "think they're about to blow up innocent people" is very low there's way too much margin for error for shoot-to-kill to be an acceptable policy.

Perhaps when they shoot a member of *your* family for the crime of looking a bit suspicious you may change your mind...

There is no death penalty in the UK even if you're convicted of a crime, but now they've effectively reintroduced capital punishment and just done away with all that tedious evidence gathering and the effort of having a trial.
Permalink Mat Hall 
August 18th, 2005
"One last thing, what sort of idiot fires a gun 8 times at a range of 12 inches and misses three shots? My neighbor's 8 year old daughter can shoot better than that."

An idiot similar to the idiot who has never fired a pistol and assumes that because they always hit the targets on TV, that's what happens on TV.

Accurately hitting targets with a pistol is a non-trivial task.
Permalink Duff 
August 18th, 2005
"I'm sorry you can't follow the logic, but even more sorry for the people you work with."

<shrug> I can follow the logic, I just think its infantile to an extreme rarely seen.

...and as for blaming the *terrorists* because the police think that actual evidence is overrated...
Permalink Jesus H Christ 
August 18th, 2005

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Joel on Software discussion board.

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