--

When accused of fraud

repeat the allegation in a loud and clear voice.

The wearisome details may be found by clicking on me.
Permalink Simon Lucy 
January 15th, 2006
How long did it take to get your hartbeat down to normal?
Permalink Erik Springelkamp 
January 15th, 2006
Probably about 5 minutes when I was at the checkout flirting with the girl who had to stand opposite the sliding door to the chill breeze.
Permalink Simon Lucy 
January 15th, 2006
So were you just flirting, or were you trying to pick her up?
Permalink Loco Lobo 
January 15th, 2006
Simon,
> The wearisome details [...]

Just keeps loading & loading ... no failures it's infinite, very odd. Reminds me of the stupid energiser bunny.
Permalink PNII 
January 15th, 2006
I also get nothing -- FF is convinced something's happening, but nothing does. Doing a view source doesn't shed much light:

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"><html><head><title></title></head><body></body></html>
Permalink Mat Hall 
January 15th, 2006
I think Zope went insane, I'm restarting the server.
Permalink Simon Lucy 
January 15th, 2006
Thanks, that's better.
Permalink PNII 
January 15th, 2006
'It's not my card so I can't sign it.'

Is this true? I've always been under the impression that anyone can use my card, and sign the receipt, providing I gave them the card and don't dispute the transaction. In support of this, although it's government, we have a card at work issued to the department head (me) that can be used by anybody I give it to - all it has on it is the dept head title. I've never done it with my personal card. Things may also be a little tighter in this age of id theft.
Permalink PNII 
January 15th, 2006
In terms of accepting a card for a transaction that involves a signature the merchant should check that the signature given matches that on the card. That this is a likely impossible task doesn't stop it being a required one.
Permalink Simon Lucy 
January 15th, 2006
How is it impossible for the merchant to compare signatures? Lots of retail outlets here do that. Some of them even ask for photo ID if it doesn't match. It's pretty rare, though. I've signed charge slips "Pope John Paul II".
Permalink Mark Warner 
January 15th, 2006
I always got the impression in the US that the signature on the card didn't have to have anything to do with the one signed in the shop; certainly in movies and on TV (which admittedly is hardly a place to garner real-life knowledge from) parents lend their kids their credit cards and so forth.

The problem I have is that my signature is somewhat eccentric, and if I do it "properly" it's about an inch and a half tall. Unfortunately that doesn't work on the back of a card, so I have to write it slowly and carefully at which point it bears very little resemblance to the genuine article. Chip and PIN is a godsend as I now no longer have to worry about it (not that anyone ever really checks), although it's very easy to watch someone press the buttons on the machine so I'm waiting for a crimewave of people being mugged on their way out of shops -- if the perp can grab the card and get to a cashpoint quick enough it could be quite troublesome...

And on a related note:
http://www.zug.com/pranks/credit/
http://www.zug.com/pranks/credit_card/
Permalink Mat Hall 
January 15th, 2006
Hmmm. I thought chip and pin was required by the banks to be used for all transactions after Feb 16th? B & Q are a bit behind schedule, methinks.

I always thought it was a condition of the card issuer that a card can only be used by the person it is issued to. I'm not sure if that authority can be delegated by the card holder.

Mat, it appears to be something of a West Coast thing, but round these parts the signature on a card is never checked during a transaction. One of two things happen instead: either they ask for photo ID and check that the mug shot, the name on the ID, and the name on the card match (which is annoying but perhaps effective); or they have you slide the card yourself without ever showing it or handing it over. For some peculiar reason, it seems that if the retailer never touches your card they are immune from liability in the case of fraudulent use. Go figure.
Permalink Ian Boys 
January 15th, 2006
Not required but any problems where they don't use it comes out of the retailer's end.
Permalink a cynic writes... 
January 15th, 2006
What is chip and pin?

I've signed on other people's cards when they've asked me to on their behalf. In fact when you report card fraud they always ask you if maybe there is someone who you gave permission to use the card who made the unexplained charges.
Permalink Art Wilkins 
January 15th, 2006
The credit card rule is that if the store acquires a signature, they are immune from loss. But if there is no signature, as in through web sales, the retailer takes the loss in the event of fraud.
Permalink Art Wilkins 
January 15th, 2006
If someone accuses me of fraud, I just kick their ass, man.
Permalink Bubba 
January 15th, 2006
Chip and pin is a card with a chip embedded which at the time of the transaction is stuck in a reader and the holder of the card uses their pin number to authorise the transaction.

However, thereis only one pin number and its relatively trivial to see what someone keys in and then steal the card.

I have proposed a system in the past (around 7 years ago) where the customer chose their own pin per transaction.
Permalink Simon Lucy 
January 16th, 2006
Two things:

-For a charge back onto your card, the retailer should be signing the slip not the customer.
-Assuming your wife gave you permission to have the card, then you are within your rights to sign it. There is no fraud in this situation as the card holder is informed. Who did they think you were trying to de-fraud?
Permalink O Canader 
January 16th, 2006
Which was my point. If you're paid a very moderate wage and you get trained to do such and such and this and that when whichever comes up if you aren't rewarded for initiative, or simple common sense then you'll just follow the rubrick and call your supervisor.

Twas ever thus.
Permalink Simon Lucy 
January 16th, 2006

This topic was orginally posted to the off-topic forum of the
Joel on Software discussion board.

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