It seems to me that just about every post for the past week or two has quickly devolved into flaming muppet or muppet flaming others. This has been a low-level rumble in the past, but lately it seems overpowering.

Anyone else feel that way?

Philo

I think you have a muppet fixation. You should get that looked at.

Welcome to the muppet channel.. all muppet, all the time.

I'm curious to see what this place would be like if muppet took a little vacation.

I have. Lots of times. Days at a time. It was very boring.

It seems to me that every thread *includes* muppet-flames but I try not to bother with those messages in any thread.

Firstly I'm not in every thread. Most threads are far too boring for me to bother with.

Secondly it's only very recently that I flame someone unprovoked in any given thread. I think I've slowly become more cynical and nasty about this place as everyone has generally ganged up on me and flamed ME without provocation time and again.

Once upon a time all I did was offer opinions. This tended to anger people. I suspect it angered the people who secretly agreed with me most of all.

Philo, you should compile a muppet timeline featuring some of muppet's most egregious moments, a la the C.McK timeline.

Don't worry that this would seem obsessive, we'll all be entertained.

> Firstly I'm not in every thread.

I can't say I've measured it; and I'm sure that my subjective impression is skewed by my reading messages chronologically (i.e. in the order in which the messages are posted) instead of reading them sorted by thread.

Perhaps "every" was meant to be read loosely: impressionistically rather than literally.

Muppet, you may have only offered your opinion, but often that opinion was a very derogatory one towards other posters. And now you you wonder why people have gotten upset and flame you?

Moron!  (sorry, Philo, it was just too tempting)

In the beginning, I only threw in a 'moron' *after* someone had taken me to task over whatever-it-was. :)

well I've noticed quite a few posts where some unwitting person has posted some question or comment or amusing link

followed by an rude and obnoxious reponse from muppet

there are days when he is obviously bored shitless and feels the need to act like a Tourette's patient

So if he gets any flaming he's probably been asking for it

(btw he did it to me about a week ago but I ignored him)

Yep recently I've been kind of a prick, but it wasn't always that way.

And if you ask me, it was you folks asked for it. :-)

>> Firstly I'm not in every thread. Most threads are far too boring for me to bother with.

Uh, Muppet you're currently "in" 19 of the last 20 topics. Perhaps I'm not familiar with the underutilized version of "most" where 1 out of 20 qualifies. :)

As I was saying... I don't think I'm the one with the problem here.

>> I've slowly become more cynical and nasty about this place as everyone has generally ganged up on me and flamed ME

muppet, stop being such a narcissist already.

I downloaded Celestia (a space simulator), and I have established with certainty that you're not the center of the universe.

Is Chrissy? He sure seems to think so.

Alex -

Funny, but I don't think I'm the largest ego around here, even discounting Chrissy. I'm one of the most vocal, sure, but if you're looking for someone with a high self-opinion, it's not me.

To get back to the OP :

You're not alone -- I've noticed the same thing. There was a post in another thread where someone mentioned that the frequency of moderators' posts relative to everyone else's has seemed to have gone up. My sense is that less people are posting, simply because they're sick of muppet.

I know I am.

Oh muppet, you're so humble.

The problem is that someone will post a good (or even mediocre) topic and the next reply is something stupid (and it's not always from muppet). From then on the rest of the conversation is stupid.. it happens over and over.

AA -

I've tried to counteract that numerous times. Most folks see that as trolling. The folks I snipe the worst are the ones who derail a good discussion with nonsense.

"The folks I snipe the worst are the ones who derail a good discussion with nonsense."

If a good discussion is derailed it's because people allow it to be.

If everyone ignores those doing the "derailing", the discussion will carry on. How hard can that be?

The problem with that theory is that there are just enough idiots around to follow the derailment up with more nonsense and destroy a discussion that the majority of people are still trying to carry on.

muppet sez : "there are just enough idiots around to follow the derailment up with more nonsense and destroy a discussion that the majority of people are still trying to carry on."

Actually, it only takes one. See the OP for details.

Sadly Snark, I'm one of the few who tends to remain on topic around here. :-)

People flame here all the time.

Unless you have statistics, I'd say muppet is not special in that regard.

Except those threads starting with 'Dear'.

yeah, I think you shuld remove muppet as a moderator philo, *that* will solve the problem.

oh! and if people *still* make posts about him, you could try jabbing steel pins into his eyeballs until they stop...

The problem is there are some idiots around here trying to be like muppet. We're not even sure we need one muppet, we certainly don't need 5 or 6 wannabies.

AA,

Are you implying muppet ...

What I found interesting was that we went from a number of "poo" posts, to an equal number of "hot mom" posts.

What's the fascination?

Philo,

I'm of the impression that things are more in line with;
Reply in kind, move on. Kinda like, I'm not taking any (more) shit but will try to remain focused in the process. <shrug>

example,

It's all in your imagination :)

There does usually seem to be a theme of the day/week.

Hot mom?

I can't believe muppet's employer doesn't appreciate him. He is such a hard worker and deserves a big raise for his efforts.

Too easy.

Muppet, you're a pure prick here and other places. I don't go around bashing people as a habit, but man, you need bashing.

And no matter how many provocative posts you make, I am not going to read a word of your "novel"...it is my theory that the reason you are so caustic is to try to generate traffic to it...

I have however snatched up everything you have written so I can build endless statistical models of you, so I can A) identify you anywhere you might stick your little felt head, and B) so google can index my models and due to my higher page rank, suck away all your google traffic.

Chris -

You're the best free entertainment I've ever encountered. I'm so glad that I ended up on kuro5hin and had the opportunity to find out what a goldmine you are.

Cool, it's just like in the original Doom where you could get the monsters to fight each other.

"I don't go around bashing people as a habit"

actually I thought you did....wasn't there something about your wife, a bashing, the police and some jail time or something? im forgetting the details, so maybe you should fill in the blanks for me?


"it is my theory that the reason you are so caustic is to try to generate traffic to it..."

LOL. pot -> kettle -> black

<g> and thats entirely aside from the sheer stupidity of the idea...."hey, now that Ive called you a moron, want to go read my novel?"

Hey Chris,

I want to know if you realize that you are losing it. One minute, you are claiming to be the principle author of universe altering technology who has no time for small minds like us, and the next minute are making petty threats to some internet nobody (no offense muppet).

What gives?

There are evil idiots. Like me :)

Rick, I don't want to be mean, but you are kind of like a dog who farts at embarrassing times.

ohhh, go jeff!

do me now!

From the odd times I've dropped in it's seemed situation normal really. This is after all what we call the muppet show;-) Obviously not following threads obsessively enough this week. Ho hum.

Chris - I haven't missed your exposition of why having no privacy is a good thing, have I? In plain English without appeals to authority (or name dropping)? I'm off next week, so I'd really hate to miss it.

The muppet made a game, by sticking its little felt head into my life, that I am quite enjoying. I will I think always find time to bash it where ever its fuzzy feltness might pop up.

Hooka dooka banana fudge with a cherry encrusted with grapefruit stuffing. I do so enjoy games, especially games played with missing marbles. Pretending to still have them is half the fun until you choke on one and die.

Evil idiot will read his novel after being called a moron.

Try to keep up.

" I will I think always find time to bash it where ever its fuzzy feltness might pop up"

yeah, chris old pal. thats why everyone here believes that you are a normal, well adjusted man on the brink of a revolutionary advance in the use of technology.

Really important work tends to leave a lot of time to fight trolls, I find.

You do have an authority issue, don't you? You should appeal to them. Give them all your personal data. Oh, wait. They already have it. Better that everything be open, then the field is level, and not just the authorities and their buddies gain.

So in English and in short, I want:

- Everyone one moving in public space identified and that identiy plainly verifiable by anyone.
- All finincial trasactions public.

(That was the linguistic representation of a series of thought patterns arranged perpendicular to one another in 7 dimensions. I figure Chris can decipher it if he drops enough acid.)

I do not care what you believe. I've done my work. Eleven years of it. Now more traditional minds will verify or falsify it.

Big fat hint, which you can take or leave as you will: Preliminary data is in from a pilot of the Cornell semantic hypergeometry experiment - mind is a semantic hyperspace.

interestingly enough I actually agree with chris on the privacy thing :) if its a choice between the few in power having information about people or everyone having information about people I believe its better for everyone to have that information.

this *doesn't* mean I believe chris is sane, it *doesn't* mean that I believe him bashing on his wife was the right thing to do and it *doesn't* mean that hes not the cyber equivalent of an already squashed cockroach.

Work a bit on your geometry feltboy.

Please explain the difference between 'semantic hyperspace' and 'neural network'.

"I do not care what you believe."

liar.

"I've done my work."

?? you dropped a buch of acied and wrote everythign down, thats not work.

"Eleven years of it. Now more traditional minds will verify or falsify it."

see, if you had had half a brain you would have tried to verify or falsify your fantasies before spending 11 years writing them down.
but you dont, thats why you are insane :)

Oh crap this is "Mama's Best Drano-Cut Brand Acid". No WONDER I got the math wrong.

"More traditional minds."

By which you mean sane, healthy ones.

First, I didn't bash my wife. Second, I'm sure that if you thought I was sane, my life would be far better, but as you don't, I think I will just have to suffer without your confirmation of my sanity.

Chris, gives up.

(Twice.)

In fairness I've been unable to find any verification of the wife-beating rumours, though it seems he really did hold himself hostage in a gun and ammunition shop in Toronto for a period of hours.

If not for the location he probably would have been stormed and killed in the first 30 minutes. Shame he didn't hole-up in a doughnut shop.

Neural networks can impliment a semantic hyperspace - they are a specif case of a more general idea.

The wife beating is simply not true. The gun store is a whole other story.

"if its a choice between the few in power having information about people or everyone having information about people I believe its better for everyone to have that information."

But to me the third option -- everyone minds their own damned business, including those people in power -- is preferable. If someone needs information about me for a specific purpose they can have it, but once that purpose has been filled they should get rid of the information.

"The wife beating is simply not true. The gun store is a whole other story."

Sounds like a sidebar quote to me!

oh, Im sorry chris, I was clearly misremembering the post and getting it all wrong. I wont bring that up again.

The third is choice impossible. The first doesn't work, which leave only making everything public.

And no it will not be easy. Almost no one with any kind of power will want the try flow of money an information public, but I do not indend to give them a choice.

LOL

So Chris is going to single-handedly expose everyone's comings and goings. He's threatened as much before, too. I can't WAIT to hear how he thinks he's going to do it.

"But to me the third option -- everyone minds their own damned business, including those people in power -- is preferable."

right, its just that getting those in power to release information once they are done with it can be difficult.


maybe it depends on what information we are talking about...specifically I believe that we should have government sponsored cameras everywhere public, with internet access to both the cameras and their historical data.

This works entirely in the favour of law abiding citizens, making both crimes committed by the general public easier to solve and crimes committed by the police etc harder to get away with.

I dont believe that information regarding your subscription to "Big Bollocks" should be available to anyone.

I guess I kind of believe that 'public' information should be available to everyone in the public...when you are out and about everything you do and every place you go is already public knowledge, its just not known by the public.

(I drafted this, put my son to bed, then saw the last flurry of posts. Bollocks. Anyway, it's a reply to Chris's reply to me)

Wonderful...a nice clear NON-INSANE position. I don't happen to agree with it*, but exactly the sort of thing I was hoping for.

...and my issue with authority is this: an argument which says "because <insert name> says so" is not a million miles from "becasue I said so" and are no arguement at all - it is an attempt to end discussion. Plus it makes you LOOK bonkers.

*...I don't think the powers that be know everything, can know everything plus the general avalibility of people's private lives would make it very easy to discredit someone - an example of which I think we demonstrated in the last few days.

Let me think for a moment...I wonder what would happen if the CIA found out that someone was threatening to expose all of their shell companies?

Appealing to authority is simply a textual shortcut. It's done all the time. Every single scientific paper for example.

--
As for the end of privacy as we know it:

A nice start for me would be internet interfaces to all public cameras. However, this cannot be anonymous access.

Next I would like to see the opening up financial information which coulod begin by making all tax returns public.

Something plausibly deniable.

(takes out a $1 bill)

"This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private"

Yup, still untraceable.

Works for me.

I DO find it interesting that people have managed to make a thread all about me into a thread all about Chrissy.

:-)

I would expect the CIA would move their companies to a juristiction where the disclosure laws didn't apply. Like what the USgov does now to avoid giving people they don't like too many rights but housing them in Cuba.

No, the correct approach is open up information of the powerful and elite first -- government, corporations, military, charities, churches ...

Chris, you are a neo-cons wannabe :)

Yes, very interesting you would note that felthead. Get used to it.

I wonder what the correlation between me posting in a thread is and the number of posts in the thread...

Chris,

You are no muppet.

Everybody love him secretly. (Sort of)

Chris,

It's about half the correlation between me posting in a thread and the number of posts in that thread. Especially if I'm quiet for a bit so that the novelty returns.

You're not going to win any popularity contests here. :)

Math is math muppet. Run the numbers. Character for character my posts are far more efficient that yours at generating activity.

muppet, watch out, he's claiming to be a bigger attention whore than anyone else here.

Well Chris, I've always thought that a reference in a paper referenced the original work not the author. Giving the reader the opportunity to track back and evaluate *that* research. So I have no problem with you referencing a paper by the Mitre corporation (whoever the hell they are*) whcih supports your position but I do with a statement "...whichis why Mitre corportation and Vulcan Investments are all over my stuff."

I'm sure you can see the distinction.

*I know I could do the research & find out - but frankly I can't be arsed.

Aaron - I used to say I banked with England. Then I actually met someone with a Bank of England account. Know that had style.

I am at that, Aaron.

Attention is the most valuable thing in the world.

Every little blip I get turns straight into mindpixels. And with every mindpixel, the future gains a little more information about what really makes up mind.

4 days into the holiday and my typing's still crap.

Cool.

(Cool to the Bank of england acct bit, I mean.)

Chris -

How do you get all the cum out of your pants when you do the laundry? Do you use a putty knife, or simply keep buying new shorts? Maybe some sort of solvent? I'm curious how a bright guy like you solves that problem.

Perk of working there apparently. I was suitably envious.

Chris should become a moderator.

THAT would be an achievement.

Mitre and Vulcan.

Mitre according to Mitre:

The MITRE Corporation is a not-for-profit organization chartered to work in the public interest. MITRE has 5,700 scientists, engineers and support specialists&#8212;65 percent of whom have Masters or Ph.D. degrees.

And Vulcan is Paul Allen's investment company.

Chris,

They just want you to stay away from them.

Feltboy, your mind is simply amazing. Your comman of the langauge nothing short of awesome. Wow. You make me pround to be a human being.

Rick, I find it difficult to believe that anyone could love felthimself. Very difficult.

And anyway, this is my thread now. It's about me.

muppet, pick a topic.

interesting, that looked like another mind twitch from chrissy.

Ah I see, parts of the alleged military-industrial complex.

Not that it exists of course.

<sounds off>

No I didn't say anyt...please...aarrrggh.

Where's Jorn Barger when you need him? At least he was intelligent, though also a prick.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.ai/browse_thread/thread/38a41a7fc103f053/92e87ebc31560422?lnk=st&q=barger+mckinstry&rnum=12&hl=en#92e87ebc31560422

JHC -

It really is too easy. :)

"I find it difficult to believe that anyone could love felthimself"

That's because you are totally self delutional, like GWB.

Go ahead muppet. Take the wheel. I'll be quite and see how much more attention this thread gets without me.

LOL

Is chapter 19 done yet?

'ere Chris - how do you know JB's not. The green checky people - well most of the green checky people - would be able to look at IPs if they felt like it so they'd be able to tell if the same person is posting under any particular name but none of the rest of us do. You could make a reasonable case for you being Sath pulling everyone's leg. Hell, you could make a case for *me* being Sath pulling everyone's leg.

The exception being the green checky people themselves of course. They we can say without a doubt are posting from browsers that have the cookies from someone who logged into a proper user account;-)

I've been meaning to getting back to reading that.

No no no. Guys. Listen, this thread is about muppet. Not me or Jorn Barger [who is homeless and live on less than a dollar per day according to Wired, so I doubt he is here, though it is possible he found free access from somewhere, but he would not post anonymously. The anonymous style is something that developed much later than the non-anonymous style both Jorn and I prefer and is the mark of childishness - if you can't put you name on your words, exactly how seriously is someone supposed to take you?]

Awwww...somebody misses his old boyfriend...so sad...

Aaron, what???

He's the only one here to mention Jorn.

Oh, now I understand.

Strange...

Uh ... it should be about muppet.

Sigh. We know him all too well :)

LOL

I *like* you Aaron, if you ever discover who I am and where I live, pop in and Ill be *proud* to share my best sheep with you.

her names lassie :)

I do miss Jorn. It is true. what's wrong with that? That's not homophobia I detect in your words now is it?

What do your precious mindpixels tell you, Chrissy-luv?

The only person here who is even mildly homophobic is me.

Try to keep up :)

er..Chris you do know we know his name don't you?...and we know where he lives? and pretty much more personal detail than we want to know?..and because of the green checky we know it's the same person (which we don't with you or me)?

...and the point of the forum system is detailed here: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/BuildingCommunitieswithSo.html

JHC -

To attempt to quote Seven Brides for Seven Brothers: "A man can't sleep when he sleeps with sheep."

That you are homophobic and homocurious. classic.

muppet/philo - I remember a couple of weeks ago, I posted a topic, and muppet popped in just to say my topic was boring, and I should work harder on entertaining him. After I replied, he even came back to respond to me about how boring it still was.

Cynic "...whichis why Mitre corportation and Vulcan Investments are all over my stuff." roughly tranlsates into "there were some hits on my website from IP addresses resolving to those domains."

Well, guys, how much stock do you place in his mindpixels now?

""A man can't sleep when he sleeps with sheep.""

what a lovely quote.

My family motto is:

"in sheep, sanctuary"

sounds much better in latin of course

Ok. Just for you.

I studied in a all boys catholic school for 10 years :)

Really Mark?

"That you are homophobic and homocurious. classic"

Ive been told im homorotic, is that good?

I do love all these new homo- words that have entered the lexicon in recent years. Tomorrow I'm going to drive my homocar to my homojob and have some homotalk with my homoboss about the homopossibility of a homoraise.

Homo.

" I remember a couple of weeks ago, I posted a topic, and muppet popped in just to say my topic was boring, and I should work harder on entertaining him"

heh. in his defence, it *was* a boring post.


". After I replied, he even came back to respond to me about how boring it still was."

<g> again, in his defence...

Another sign you and muppet are the same person :)

Yeah, pretty much. There's a 400+ post thread a while back where he verified this. Chris monitors his stats in real time, obsessively so. It's how he found us in the first place.

http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?off.9.165584.464#discussTopic165951

JHC - I think my response was "What do you read every single thread on this site? Even the ones you're not interested in?" and he came back to say "no."

Green checks are meaningless to me. Looks like more elite information hoarding to me. And as I said, I doubt Jorn is here. He'd use his real name, green check or not.

I believe my answer was "Of course not."

My stats are important to me. I go anywhere generating traffic. This place is still generating a remarkable diversity of traffic. I am actually impressed because nothing other than low level flame wars see to pass here.

Funny, I'd think that green checkies, the only real way of publicly validating identity here, would be kinda interesting. Whatever.

He also seems completely oblivious to the purpose of this section of JoS.

How mildly amusing.

Well at any rate I AM amused by his tirades regarding how nothing I say can be taken to have any value at all because I'm completely anonymous and, having no identity, my assertions are meaningless and without context. The fact is that every member of the community here not only knows who I am, my exact street address, my hobbies, interests, financial situation, health, health of my daughter....

ok that's really about it.

This place has a purpose? I don't believe it.

I was hoping no one would tell him, it kind of made every rant of his along that vein sort of an in-joke against him.

ahh, validate me.

Pheh. I won't believe "Chris McKinstry" exists until I see a birth certificate and photo ID.

You are lost. Totally.

Like Michael Jackson.

(Note: not an insult to MJ. Just stating facts.)

Well just so they're not meaningless - the green checks indicate that the person is logged in. The rest of us can put whatever the hell we like in the "Full name" box. However if a logged in person changes their entry *all* their previous posts change name too. Which wasn't documented but we have experimental evidence.

...and the purpose of this place is - in a very real sense - to beta-test the forums functions of a piece of bug-test/support/software-project-management software with particular reference to beating the living shit out of the baesian filtering.

I always assumed that Chris was just muppet under another nick...is he really an actual person?

I am not a member of this community. So, you are completely anonymous to anyone wnadering in here, as I did. And I might add, that was your own fault. I would have never have showed up here if you - muppet - didn't call me here.

The fact that you are not anyomous to the community is meaningless. As I said, more elite information hoarding. It's a bad thing.

Your words need to be public and permanent to have any real value. They need to stand where you daughter can google them and see what kind of person you are.

Yeah very cute. So now I need a green checky thing to keep my name from being hijacked.

That's your value. Not ours.

Except sharkfish ...

"particular reference to beating the living shit out of the baesian filtering."

which is kind of technical way of saying "collecting mind pixels so we can prevent build a 7-dimensional hyperspacial nexus to prevent spam"


..or something like that..chris, whats the drooling madmans name for a bayesian filter again?

I see another psychotic break coming on...

That's the difference between you and me, Chrissy. I have no overwhelming ego that I must feed in order to remain at least marginally sane. It makes no difference at all to me if my wrods are meaningful out of the context of this community. It makes no difference to me if my words outlast me, or even if they outlast my participation on this particular site.

Of course, I heartily disagree with your nonsensical assertion that words are meaningless without an identity to go with them, but that's for another discussion. Obviously a compelling argument stands on its own merit.

Green checks and name hijacking are perfect demonstrations of the need for universial identification and disclosure. It's a joke here, but a real source of abuse and danger in the real world.

"Your words need to be public and permanent to have any real value."

they *are* you dribbling moron, click on muppets link and check around.

hell, if you search the archives you can find a mpg of him dancing to the sound of his light saber.

oh for gawds sake - nothing is permanaent! Anything you say
is emphemeral, has been emphemeral and always will be emphemaral. Your entire life will be less than 0.000001% of the age of the universe.

Just deal with it.

Muppet, I have not once seen an arguement, compelling or otherwise come from your fingers. But, as Shakespeare said, the lady doth protest too much. You would not have written a novel and dumped it into the public domain and pleaded for readers if what you said were remotely true. You're talking backwards again. Projecting.

> a mpg of him dancing with his light saber ...

Eeeewwwwwwwwwwww!

"Eeeewwwwwwwwwwww"

you cannot possibly imagine the horror.

Chris I write a novel because I simply enjoy the act of writing. I offer it for free online because, being myself in constant search of reading material (hence my interest in k5 and everything2), I thought I'd give a bit back to the internet community at large that chooses to publish their work similarly into the public domain. Of course, I also enjoy feedback on my work, as anyone does.

It would be nice if people were still reading my book years and years from now, but if that doesn't happen, no part of me will crumble. I'm certain that if you ever fade from the public eye, you will finish going insane.

"I have not once seen an arguement, compelling or otherwise come from your fingers."

??? whats he supposed to be arguing about?

Okay guys, I've casued another triple digit thread and now I have to go. I have got to puck something up for my son, then I have a date.

Talk amongst yourselves.

In another sense, all you do is permanent.

Even God could not change that fact.

...no you don't get a green checky unless joel wants to give you one because it suits him. If later the need changes - you get to keep it. And even the green checkie just means you've got the word of a machine that it recognises a cookie.

You are doing the digital equivilent of scribbling notes on a wall to people you've never met. What the hell do you expect?

Your spelling is slipping again. Are you twitching over there, too?

It's also funny that you think you have a monopoly on triple digit threads. I've had over a dozen since coming here. Others have had them as well, but I've got the record.

It's just another trivial thing that I'm better than you at. It affects my ego not at all but I know inconsequential victories are crucial to yours.

Chris -

Will this be like the last thread where you had to leave but stayed and continued posting for 9 hours thereafter?

I think chris is getting smarter and leaving when the twitchies strike.

shame, hes at his best for entertainment value when he starts drooling :)

Good. We could get back to humiliating and arguing with each other.

moron.

I agree. He so thoroughly humiliated himself in the last nutjob mindpixel thread that he fears a repeat performance. He seems to have learned that when the voices start and he begins to see angels and devils on his shoulders, it's time to go for his own sake.

"Can't we all just get along?"

King or Dangerfield?

It doesn't matter. Neither one ever got any respect.

Crazy Old Guy is right.