They don't even serve pork lunch in Porky the movie!

Just Not getting the Strategy of the Gay Movement...

Look, I'm bisexual, and I've had a great time, all the while practicing safe sex. I'm bisexual for the same reason I reject most stupid traditions and mores woven into the fabric of society: I believe that tradition is the antithesis of reason - if you do something just because it's always been done that way, then you're not really thinking, are you? And what's more, you're not really experiencing the full spectrum of the human condition.

Anyway, the point is, I'm bi because I frickin' wanna be. Which is what surprises the heck out of me when I hear gay activists. If I hear one more gay activist tell me that s/he was born that way, I'm going to scream because of two reason:

(1) I chose to be bi. I never thought about it until college, I decided to try it, and I've been pleased with my decision since. It's like anything else - maybe there are a handful of people at either end of the bell curve who *must* be gay or straight - but for the vast majority of people, I think that the fashion of their society is the most important factor in their preference. And, you know what? I'll be damned if I'm going to miss out on an amazing human experience because Bubba's a homophobe. And you know what else? I've been more mistreated by "pure" gays looking down their noses at me for not taking a stand. Well, I'm going to do what I want, and who I want, and I really don't need to get the permission of one group or another.

(2) It's nobody's business who in the heck you share a bed with. If you're hurting nobody, you should be allowed to have a darn relationship with anyone you feel like. The gay activists are saying that, "It's not a choice, therefore, legally you have no more reason to discriminate against gays than you do against African Americans." Now what happens, if in the future, some geneticist gives convincing data that it's really not a choice?!? Then the movement is screwed because short sighted activists are using this as the lynch pin of the argument. Whether or not you born gay is really quite fargin' irrelevant. The point should be that it no one's business who you love.
Permalink Zippy Kondracky 
November 10th, 2004
++if you do something just because it's always been done that way, then you're not really thinking, are you?

You realise that doing something just because its different from what's always been done is the same thing?
Permalink Kenny_the_kettle 
November 10th, 2004
If I hear one more bi activist tell me that s/he chose to be that way, I'm going to cry.
Permalink Phil McCracken 
November 10th, 2004
If it really is genetic then there will be continuum. Just like some people are faster than others. For you it may be a choice. Perhaps what you may not understand is for many people they don't feel a choice is possible. I am heterosexual and feel as if no choice is possible. I couldn't imagine making a choice.

As for strategy it's difficult. My father, for example, just doesn't like gays and has no reason other than he doesn't. In one side of his mouth he'll bitch about the guvrnment yet be happy when the same government takes away gay rights.

In that type of environment the genetic that's the way god made me argument may the only way in.
Permalink son of parnas 
November 10th, 2004
WooHooo! *Cheers* *Applause*
Permalink Mr Jack 
November 10th, 2004
(That was to the OP by the way)
Permalink Mr Jack 
November 10th, 2004
>> "You realise that doing something just because its different from what's always been done is the same thing?"

Just because one doesn't do something because it's the way it's always been done, DOESN'T mean that one does "something just because its different from what's always been done." Freshman level logic. I do things because I want to, or because I've reasoned that they will maximize my human experience. 

>> "I am heterosexual and feel as if no choice is possible. I couldn't imagine making a choice."

When I was in high school, I felt exactly the same way. And if I didn't make the choice in college, I would probably feel the same way today, because making such a choice as an adult requires taking a huge, HUGE risk. But in college - especially in the 80s - there was no risk. I was impressed by a math professor who showed the great logical errors that occur when people make assumptions that don't follow from the axioms. I saw no reason why I MUST be purely hetero, and decided push the limits of a conventional life.
Permalink Zippy Kondracky 
November 10th, 2004
Just because one does do something just because one doesn't do something because it's the way it's always been done, DOESN'T mean that one does "something just because its different from what's always been done.", DOESN'T mean that one does "something just because its different from what's always been done."
Permalink Kenny_the_kettle 
November 10th, 2004
Kenny, could you rewrite that in VB.NET?
Permalink Daniel Daranas 
November 10th, 2004
If you're a dude, there is no bi. Only gay.
Permalink . 
November 10th, 2004
++If you're a dude, there is no bi. Only gay.

lemme guess: you're gay?
Permalink Kenny_the_kettle 
November 10th, 2004
>> "If you're a dude, there is no bi. Only gay."

Bubba, is 'at you? Or maybe it Brucey-Wucey.
Permalink Zippy Kondracky 
November 10th, 2004
not gay, not bi. If you have sex with men, you are gay.
Permalink . 
November 10th, 2004
oh ok. its just that most gay men will agree with you.
Permalink Kenny_the_kettle 
November 10th, 2004
Phil McCracken -

That name made me laugh so hard I literally sprayed coffee out of my mouth!
Permalink Yet another anon 
November 10th, 2004
>> "not gay, not bi. If you have sex with men, you are gay."

I see, Bubba. But, hey, I think you protest too much. I think you're kinda sweet on big, strong, sweaty men. Right, Bubba? Now, go beat your wife so your redneck buddies won't find out you're thinking about them in their speedos.

Love & wet kisses, sweety.
Permalink Zippy Kondracky 
November 10th, 2004
"I see, Bubba. But, hey, I think you protest too much. I think you're kinda sweet on big, strong, sweaty men. Right, Bubba? Now, go beat your wife so your redneck buddies won't find out you're thinking about them in their speedos."

You have no idea dude. Just FYI - 99% of straight men feel the same way.
Permalink . 
November 10th, 2004
But I think hetero men can agree that bisexual women are, in fact, bisexual. And that is a good thing. Usually.
Permalink Lou Diamond Phillips 
November 10th, 2004
Bi chicks are just plain ol' confused, but damn sexy.
Permalink . 
November 10th, 2004
" Just FYI - 99% of straight men feel the same way."

really? I must be out of the loop then.

I have sex with women cause they're sexy and men dont tend to ruffle my feathers (except maybe mel gibson..)

As I understand it, gay men have sex with men cause they're sexy and women dont tend to ruffle their feathers (although I *assume* everyone likes drew barrymore)

so it seems perfectly possible that bi men would find both sexes sexy.
Permalink FullNameRequired 
November 10th, 2004
How enlightened of you. You gotta be kidding me if you think straight men think this way.

I'm not saying it makes sense, or is right, or anything like that, but it's the way it is.
Permalink . 
November 10th, 2004
Speak for yourself, dot. I'm straight and I don't agree with you. I agree with FullNameRequired. I'm seeing more straight guys here disagreeing with you than agreeing with you.

Being a member of a subset of a group does not allow you to generalize to the larger group.
Permalink Aaron F Stanton 
November 10th, 2004
Whatever guys. The JoS subset is not a representative sample. If you think that most straight guys think a guy who has sex with men is not gay, you are in a fantasy world.
Permalink . 
November 10th, 2004
I think that it's equally likely that the people you associate with are not a representative sample.
Permalink Aaron F Stanton 
November 10th, 2004
whatever you say. Most people I know would agree with you guys. They're also highly educated urbanites, like most of you guys probably are.

My brain agrees, my guts know better. Take your enlightened worldview to a red state and see how far it goes.
Permalink . 
November 10th, 2004
I live in Indiana.
Permalink Aaron F Stanton 
November 10th, 2004
you honestly believe that if you posed this to 100 men on the street they would be able to draw the distinction?
Permalink . 
November 10th, 2004
Yes, I do believe that well over half will be able do make the distinction, even if they find both homosexuality and bisexuality to be repulsive.

Do you personally know anyone that agrees with you? I'm just curious as to how you extrapolate your available data to 99%.
Permalink Aaron F Stanton 
November 10th, 2004
> bisexuality to be repulsive.

I wonder who buys all the porn then.
Permalink son of parnas 
November 10th, 2004
you don't see much bi porn.
Permalink . 
November 10th, 2004
The only way I can imagine you'd know that is if you looked for it.

Not implying anything, just saying...
Permalink Aaron F Stanton 
November 10th, 2004
i think he meant girl on girl then subsequent girls on guys or threesomes with two girls and a guy where... oh, you get the "gist"...
Permalink Kenny_the_kettle 
November 10th, 2004
Oh, yeah, that's right, because mmf threeways aren't bi, they're gay, by his definition. According to him. The straight guy who speaks for all straight guys.

Riiiight.
Permalink Aaron F Stanton 
November 10th, 2004
>> "Just because one does do something just because one doesn't do something because it's the way it's always been done, DOESN'T mean that one does "something just because its different from what's always been done.', DOESN'T mean that one does "something just because its different from what's always been done.'"

>> "i think he meant girl on girl then subsequent girls on guys or threesomes with two girls and a guy where... oh, you get the "gist"..."

Kenny the Kettle:
I sincerely hope there comes a day when all citizens of the world can produce such lucid, succinct, and clear-minded arguments. You are the master.
Permalink Zippy Kondracky 
November 10th, 2004
no, you're not getting it.

It's only gay if the guys have sex WITH EACH OTHER, this includes kissing, intercourse, etc.
Permalink . 
November 10th, 2004
But...two women who do the same thing aren't automatically lesbians?

and...one man and one woman doing it aren't automatically straight?

It's only when two guys do it that they are automatically gay?

and let me guess, if they only do it once and never again, they're still gay forever?

What a strange world.
Permalink Aaron F Stanton 
November 10th, 2004
when women do stuff together they are not lesbians, they are sexy. They are only lesbians if they get short haircuts and drive a Ford Aspire.
Permalink . 
November 10th, 2004
So, back to my earlier question:

Do you personally know anyone that agrees with you?
Permalink Aaron F Stanton 
November 10th, 2004
You seem like a smart guy Aaron, why are you so easily trolled?
Permalink . 
November 10th, 2004
lol - I actually had a virtually identical conversation with someone in a chat room once. I won. Just wondered if I could do it again.

I actually debated quite some time about diving into this thread, and then decided why not. It just seems like faulty reasoning, to me. To be consistent in your absolutism, it strikes me that you'd have to say that two women getting it on are automatically lesbians. Why would gender matter?
Permalink Aaron F Stanton 
November 10th, 2004
The point of course, is that there is no "consistency to my absolutism", that there is no "set of rules", and that people can and will have maddeningly conflictive understandings of the world around them!

As easy it is to say that "bi is not the same as gay", it's just as easy to say "yes it is". There is no documentation that can be produced, no test case that can be written - no automated build to pass or fail.

You cannot sell this stuff with reason.
Permalink . 
November 10th, 2004
Just like cigarettes are legal simply because they are already deeply entrenched into our society.
Permalink Aaron F Stanton 
November 10th, 2004
I too am bi, and let me say that I don't care at all whether it's a choice or it's genetics. It's my right to sleep with who I choose no matter the reason why.

I agree with the poster that the gay movement pressing biology is weird and may ultimately backfire. However, I do understand their position. They want to take the most defensible position possible so that the most people possible with agree with them. I understand that. And quite frankly, choice weakens their argument. It shouldn't, but it does in the minds of some people.

But I also must say that just because it's a choice for one person, doesn't make it a choice for anyone else. Everyone is different, and your experience isn't everyone's. I, personally, am attracted to both sexes, it really doesn't bother me that other people aren't. (Although, for the record, it's really, really fun.)
Permalink ~ 
November 10th, 2004
Tradition, that's a common feeling to reject what you feel has rejected you...

Myself, am more of an eclectic, seeing what has value to me, and then discarding what is not....

I was never a very religous person, but after a lot of bad parts of my own life, i saw the value....

My own grandfather came from Russia with nothing, but worked hard every day, and every weekend went to religous services...

But about 2-3 years ago, i started to discover more and more value in Tradition, not to blindly accept it, but that tradition is there because of past wisdom and knowledge...

Never blindly accept anything, but also never blindly reject something...

For me, religion has become a way to honor my grandparents, my parents, to help me become a better man.

I am no fanatic, just one person's view...
Permalink Craig M. Rosenblum 
November 11th, 2004
Tradition, by itself, is not sufficient reason to keep doing something. There must be real value to it. Ask a Rabbi if it's acceptable for a starving Jew to eat a completely cooked ham. Much of the Jewish law on food is about health and what was safe at the time the law was written. It made sense then, and in similar situations still makes sense today. However, times have changed.

I work with a diabetic Jewish vegetarian. Wow, her eating habits are interesting. A lot of salads. (Oh, and to tie this back to the original topic, she's gay, too.)
Permalink Aaron F Stanton 
November 11th, 2004
Bisexuality is the Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw of the sexual spectrum. It implies tendencies, but not dogmatic extremes. No one knows if you're born to it or if it's something you choose. And it certainly gets no respect from those arrogant Gryffindors or Slytherins.

I'll leave it to your personal biases whether Gryffindor=straight and Slytherin=gay or the other way around.
Permalink The tail of the "g" 
November 12th, 2004

This topic was orginally posted to the off-topic forum of the
Joel on Software discussion board.

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