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industries the US government *doesn't* subsidize

Presumably there have to be some :)

Im interested in any US industry that is entirely free of subsidies in any form....so farming, for instance, is not entirely free because we have protective tariffs, payments for not farming certain things, and a bunch of other forms of subsidy.

Any subsidy for a specific part of an industry counts as that entire industry being subsidised....not entirely fair but hey.

By 'subsidy' I mean anything that provides substantial support for a particular part of an industry....so farming protection tariffs and grants, drug research for the pharmeticuticals(sp?) and so on.

So subsidised are:
guns/armaments
drugs
internet
farming
computer software industry (H1Bs)

unsubsidised are:
Computer hardware industry

...what else?
Permalink Jesus H Christ 
January 5th, 2006
How do you define subsidized?
Permalink Colm O'Connor 
January 5th, 2006
Retail? Sears, Walmart, etc?
Permalink Phil 
January 5th, 2006
"How do you define subsidized?"

take a guess?
Permalink Jesus H Christ 
January 5th, 2006
yeah, retail is unsibsidised AFAIK...good one.

unsubsidised are:
Computer hardware industry
Retail industry
Permalink Jesus H Christ 
January 5th, 2006
Any kind of service industry? Restraunts, sports teams, small business like plumbers, copy shops, etc... Manufacturing of many things is not subsidised, but many things are too, so thats a tough one. Lumber is subsidized, but pipe manufacture is not.  The clothing industry? I'm sure some aspect of textile manufacture is subsidized though.
Permalink Phil 
January 5th, 2006
unsubsidised are:
Computer hardware industry
Retail industry
The entire service industry(?)



"Manufacturing of many things is not subsidised, but many things are too, so thats a tough one."

right, thats why I decided to call an industry 'subsidised' if any part of it were substandially supported....I dont really want to end up listing things on a shop-by-shop basis :)

Lets call manufacturing subsidised.

So subsidised are:
guns/armaments
drugs
internet
farming
computer software industry (H1Bs)
Manufacturing
Permalink Jesus H Christ 
January 5th, 2006
Entertainment industry? Video games, movies, etc?
Permalink Phil 
January 5th, 2006
Financial industry? Banking, mutual funds etc? This is a fun game... it is disgusting how many things are gov subsidized.
Permalink Phil 
January 5th, 2006
"Entertainment industry? "

right..movies etc, almost definitely unsubsidised.

"Video games, movies, etc?"

I assume normal video games still come under the software industry?

"Financial industry? Banking, mutual funds etc? This is a fun game."

hmm...not sure about the financials, I have a feeling its subsidised somehow but I cannot think how.

ok, lets add it under unsubsidised for now.

How about insurance?

unsubsidised are:
Computer hardware industry
Retail industry
The entire service industry(?)
Entertainment (movies)
Financial industry
Insurance

So subsidised are:
guns/armaments
drugs
internet
farming
computer software industry (H1Bs) (including video games)
Manufacturing
Permalink Jesus H Christ 
January 5th, 2006
porn
Permalink Star Wars Kid 
January 5th, 2006
Why do H1Bs == subsidies?
Permalink ronk! 
January 5th, 2006
congratulations ronk! youve found a question thats nearly as stupid as colms earlier one.
Permalink Jesus H Christ 
January 5th, 2006
You're missing a lot from subsidized still:

Energy Industry (oil, gas, electric)
Airlines
Auto Industry
I'm guessing your counting Dairy and Meat under farming?
Drugs could also be the entire bioscience industry

Out of curiosity how are guns subsidised? Or are you including this because the government buys a lot of guns?
Permalink Phil 
January 5th, 2006
Subsidized:
Airlines (when they get in enough trouble)
Passenger railroads
Roads of any kind
Car companies (when they get in enough trouble)
Space
Aviation



Unsubsidized:
Lemonaid stands -- but that's service industry, I guess.
The Medical industry?
  -- Drug production -- probably subsidized
  -- Hospitals -- private?
  Sure, the Government provides for INDIVIDUALS Medicare/Medicaid -- but should that count for the Doctors and Hospitals that take that Medicare/Medicaid?
Permalink AllanL5 
January 5th, 2006
ok, so we have:

unsubsidised are:
Computer hardware industry
Retail industry
The entire service industry(?)
Entertainment (movies)
Financial industry
Insurance

So subsidised are:
guns/armaments
drugs (including entire bioscience industry)
internet
farming (including dairy and meat)
computer software industry (H1Bs) (including video games)
Manufacturing
Energy Industry (oil, gas, electric)
Airlines
Auto Industry


"Out of curiosity how are guns subsidised? Or are you including this because the government buys a lot of guns?"

not really @ buys a lot of guns, on its own that wouldn't be sufficient IMO to be a 'subsidy'.
Its kind of a guess, but I have this feeling that there is a much closer relationship there than just that....Im pretty sure that the government subsidizes a lot of research in the industry, and also goes beyond merely purchasing a heap of weapons into actually promising purchases well before they are available to ensure that they *become* available.
Permalink Jesus H Christ 
January 5th, 2006
Is a road an industry? I thought it's infrastructure. One could of course consider some of the road construction subsidized.
Permalink Peter Monsson 
January 5th, 2006
thanks allan.

"but should that count for the Doctors and Hospitals that take that Medicare/Medicaid?"

yeah, I think so.

ok, we are up to:

unsubsidised are:
Computer hardware industry
Retail industry
The entire service industry(?)
Entertainment (movies)
Financial industry
Insurance

So subsidised are:
guns/armaments
drugs (including entire bioscience industry)
internet
farming (including dairy and meat)
computer software industry (H1Bs) (including video games)
Manufacturing
Energy Industry (oil, gas, electric)
Airlines/Entire transport industry
Auto Industry
Space stuff
Health
Permalink Jesus H Christ 
January 5th, 2006
I think the US citizens are still paying for the B&L bailout....

Banks - subsidized



I think most states require auto insurance....
Permalink Yo! 
January 5th, 2006
ohh, ok @ banks

the simple requirement of auto insurance *is* prolly a kind of subsidy, but for now I think we'll ignore it and continue to call the insurance unsubsidised.

so we have:

unsubsidised are:
Computer hardware industry
Retail industry
The entire service industry(?)
Entertainment (movies)
Financial industry (excluding banking)
Insurance

So subsidised are:
guns/armaments
drugs (including entire bioscience industry)
internet
farming (including dairy and meat)
computer software industry (H1Bs) (including video games)
Manufacturing
Energy Industry (oil, gas, electric)
Airlines/Entire transport industry
Auto Industry
Space stuff
Health
Banking industry
Permalink Jesus H Christ 
January 5th, 2006
I thought Arnie had to change some taxes to get movies to come back to Hollywood? I know that Canadian gov'ts were busy giving subsidies to get productions here - BC was giving tax breaks, and then bitched when Ontario gave bigger ones.

Not sure what your intended use of the list is, but it's gonna get quibbled to death if you try to say "this whole industry" is or isn't subsidized - people in the industry are going to say that their parts aren't.
Permalink Ward Bush 
January 5th, 2006
Well he also said the US Government. Some states have subsidized movies, and states subsidize various social programs and insurance to a point, but not the feds.
Permalink Phil 
January 5th, 2006
"Not sure what your intended use of the list is, but it's gonna get quibbled to death if you try to say "this whole industry" is or isn't subsidized - people in the industry are going to say that their parts aren't."

yeah. government subsidies only. The list is for (a) entertainment and (b) to help with a discussion I was having with a friend and neither of us are interested in quibbling the details.
Permalink Jesus H Christ 
January 5th, 2006
Financial industry is massively subsidized - tax breaks for this or that form of investment from all sorts of levels of government. Not sure if this applies to Insurance or not.

Wood products isn't really farming, includes manufacturing component - also subsidized by every country that does it, including NZ...
Permalink Ward Bush 
January 5th, 2006
"Financial industry is massively subsidized - tax breaks for this or that form of investment from all sorts of levels of government."

Got any examples? I'm always looking for a good government subsidized investment.
Permalink Phil 
January 5th, 2006
If the government subsidizes the gun industry, then they also subsidize software, hardware, retail, financial, and...

How the HELL do you figure government doesn't subsidize the insurance industry? Who do you think passes the laws requiring auto insurance?

Philo
Permalink Philo 
January 5th, 2006
" including NZ..."

actually new zealand doesn't subsidise manufacturing generally or wood products specifically at all.

they cut all that out back in the 80s, in the wildly optimistic hope that countries like america would follow their example.
Its a proud boast of the nz farmers that they can now deliver a lamb to the british market *cheaper* than the british farmers can.

a large # of farmers went bust of course once the subsidies were removed.
Permalink Jesus H Christ 
January 5th, 2006
I wouldn't consider manditory insurance a subsidy.  It's certainly not a direct one. Its also not intended as a subsidy as much as a public service type thing.
Permalink Phil 
January 5th, 2006
"Who do you think passes the laws requiring auto insurance?"

wow. are you blind you stupid old bat?

take your withered old hindquarters over and read the post where I said explicitly that it was prolly a subsidy, but that I would be ignoring it for the sake of keeping the insurance thing as one grouping.
Permalink Jesus H Christ 
January 5th, 2006
"If the government subsidizes the gun industry, then they also subsidize software, hardware, retail, financial, and..."

wtf? read the thread you boring old bastard. we cover the reasons that I have listed the government as subsidising the gun industry, and its *not* because they purchase guns.
Permalink Jesus H Christ 
January 5th, 2006
Not so easy to define 'subsidy' now, is it?
Permalink Colm O'Connor 
January 5th, 2006
Awe.... JHC thinks he's being clever.

***sooo cute I could eat you right up***
Permalink ronk! 
January 5th, 2006
He's smarter than most.
Permalink Colm O'Connor 
January 5th, 2006
"I wouldn't consider manditory insurance a subsidy."

If you were a CEO, which would you rather have:
- a 15% tax cut
- a check from the government
- a law that says everyone in the country has to buy your product?

Seriously - which sounds like the best deal?

As for guns, the gov't probably exerts more influence on software and hardware than on guns.

Philo
Permalink Philo 
January 5th, 2006
>a law that says everyone in the country has to buy your
>product?

Buy a product that you happen to sell, not necessarily *your* product.
Permalink Colm O'Connor 
January 5th, 2006
"Not so easy to define 'subsidy' now, is it?"

jeez colm. I barely defined 'subsidy' to start with. I wanted to *avoid* defining subsidy as much as I could.

Im not writing a law here, just compiling a rough list.



"Awe.... JHC thinks he's being clever."

<g> ...actually I was going for really, really rude.



"If you were a CEO, which would you rather have:"

right. thats why I say its prolly a subsidy. I just dont really want to get to the point of itemising the different parts of the insurance industry, so Ive decided to *ignore it* based on the entirely arbitary decision that its prolly not a huge part of the insurance industry.

I might be wrong about that. but *please* dont lets get stuck quibbling, lets just get a rough list compiled.

"As for guns, the gov't probably exerts more influence on software and hardware than on guns."

influence in terms of direction, sure. but the government purchases of arms as a % of the american weapons industry(including really high tech stuff) compared to the government purchases of computers as a % of the american computing industry are really really different...the government also subsidises the r & d of the armaments industry to a much, much higher degree.

so...stop quibbling. im not writing a law, just getting a rough feel (of your withered old buttocks)
Permalink Jesus H Christ 
January 5th, 2006
Okay, let's meet in the middle - leave insurance off the list, and take guns off as well.

(sorry, but I have this sneaking suspicion that guns were only on the list in the first place because you don't like them)

Philo
Permalink Philo 
January 5th, 2006
ok, ok. Id hate to lose my reputation for being well-mannered and easy to deal with.

Just for the record though, I am *hugely* in favour of our country maintaining a great fuckoff stock of guns, and a precision army, so although I listed guns as being subsidised because I genuinely believe they are, I dont have a problem with that.
I *do* have a problem with every citizen in the country owning one, and I *do* have a problem with our government actually *using* the great fuck-off pile of weapons in their care unnecessarily, say for invading other countries, but I am very much in favour of guns as a defence for the country.

"unsubsidised are:
Computer hardware industry
Retail industry
The entire service industry(?)
Entertainment (movies)
Financial industry (excluding banking)
Insurance
guns/armaments

So subsidised are:
drugs (including entire bioscience industry)
internet
farming (including dairy and meat)
computer software industry (H1Bs) (including video games)
Manufacturing
Energy Industry (oil, gas, electric)
Airlines/Entire transport industry
Auto Industry
Space stuff
Health
Banking industry
Permalink Jesus H Christ 
January 5th, 2006
any others?

Phil has made a huge contribution here, surely someone else has a useful industry to add instead of quibbling over the work done by phil?
Permalink Jesus H Christ 
January 5th, 2006
Defence
Permalink Colm O'Connor 
January 5th, 2006
"unsubsidised are:
Computer hardware industry
Retail industry
The entire service industry(?)
Entertainment (movies)
Financial industry (excluding banking)
Insurance
guns/armaments

So subsidised are:
drugs (including entire bioscience industry)
internet
farming (including dairy and meat)
computer software industry (H1Bs) (including video games)
Manufacturing
Energy Industry (oil, gas, electric)
Airlines/Entire transport industry
Auto Industry
Space stuff
Health
Banking industry
Defence (excluding guns and armaments)
Permalink Jesus H Christ 
January 5th, 2006
Sport Teams subsidized with monopoly rights (baseball) and land/tax exemptions for stadiums (local). The return on these subsidies appears to be quite poor.

Guns from 1917(?) to 1996 had the US Army's Division of Civilian Marksmanship working for them. It was a modest $5 program and now privately funded.

Retail could be viewed as getting a subsidy through the fact that they hire low wage, low skill workers who get health care through the government. If the goevrnment didn't provide that healthcare, presumably, walmart would have to. Thus, subsidy.

The Advanced Technology Program gives $100 million plus away to profitable companies including high tech. Since 1990, IBM , General Electric, General Motors, Oracle, Sun Microsystems, Texas Instruments, ... have all received a million or more from the ATP.

Up until 1995 or so, the DOD gave away $600 million or so through the Technology Reinvestment Project, which aimed to produce dual use high technology for the US military.

The Import-Export Bank provides insurance and banking services to lots of companies including plenty of retail companies. I assume we look at this as a subsidy since companies would otherwise have to get these services from real banks or do without.

The Small Business Administration loaned $15 Billion or so last year. They also provide loan guarantees and buiness advice, which I count as subsidy. Not sure what industry this covers.
Permalink Kasey 
January 5th, 2006
Every industry.

In fact, I've racked my brains and I think that the ONLY industry that *doesn't* receive anything that could be construed as a subsidy is the sex industry.
Permalink Colm O'Connor 
January 5th, 2006
If you define a "Government Subsidy" as "Anything the government does to help" vs. "Direct payouts of cash", this thread takes a completely different direction, no?

As has been said already - kinda hard to define a subsidy, no?

If you choose the "cash" definition, your list looks a lot different.
Permalink Sassy 
January 5th, 2006
i said porn like 50 posts ago. i demand recognition!
Permalink Star Wars Kid 
January 5th, 2006
Okay, you're the Star Wars Kid.

Philo
Permalink Philo 
January 5th, 2006
If you consider "anything the gov't does to help (or hinder) a subsidy, then any profession that requires a college education is subsidized by way of federal student loans, grants, prep school, etc.

The notion that H1B's are a gov't subsidy is baackwards. Its the govt relaxing a trade constraining regulation.

Why computer hardware mfg gets no H1B recognition and software does in this thread only means none of ?off's work on hardware. Our office is 50% H1B's & green cards (hardware and software shop).

Look, the government is so intrusive and pervasive that there is nothing that happens without its involvement.

Let's start another thread and say "what doesn't the government wiretap" and by implication decide that hell, the 4th amendment is a farse, let's just fold up the tents and live in a police state.
Permalink hoser 
January 5th, 2006
>>> Defence (excluding guns and armaments) <<<

The US government doesn't subsidize defence. The Canadian government might. :-}
Permalink Q7 
January 5th, 2006
By "protected", do we include associations that restrict supply artificially? Examples might include law, or medical doctors.
Permalink sharkfish 
January 5th, 2006
Oh yes. Good point.
Permalink Kasey 
January 5th, 2006
Are goernment actions which allow an industry to better rip off those it interacts with a subsidy?
e.g. the recent bankruptcy strengthening for credit card issuers
the congreesional throttling of the SEC pre-Enron allowing businesses to rip of their sharehoders?
Permalink expr 
January 6th, 2006
unsubsidised are:
Computer hardware industry = manufacturing

Retail industry = import/export laws (Wal Mart) + do they give out subsidies for starting a local Wal Mart? Not federal, local governments.

Entertainment (movies) = DMCA

Finance = The government may bail out any company that's about to go under if it's important to the economy. I don't get, though, how finance is separable from banking. Didn't they just restructure bankruptcy laws for individuals, and credit cards exist becaues of local governments setting the interest rate cap high and the federal government allowing states to export interest rates (which is why all credit cards are in Souix Falls, SD.
Permalink MarkTAW 
January 6th, 2006
The computer hardware industry was very deeply subsidized until its wares could be sellable on the market. So, the government would buy 100% of the high-quality transistors from AT&T (which was itself a government-legalized monopoly then), etc.

From what I hear, afterwards defense spending gives it a nice cushion.
Permalink Tayssir John Gabbour 
January 6th, 2006
The tenor of this thread is that everyone wants smaller, less intrusive government to me.

Libertines All! Rock on.
Permalink hoser 
January 6th, 2006

This topic was orginally posted to the off-topic forum of the
Joel on Software discussion board.

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