Nobody likes to be called a dummy by a dummy.

There really is a US "Brain Drain"

http://www.thefutureofwork.net/blog/archives/000122.html

http://edgeperspectives.typepad.com/edge_perspectives/2005/04/flight_of_the_c.html

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A//www.creativeclass.org/&ei=TOS3Q72uOM30afHT8aoC&sig2=vomTeJ8T0aK4OANGBTHaZw

I am up this morning watching Book TV. Richard Florida is on, and is the author of "The Flight of the Creative Class". I am not surprised that we aren't letting certain people into this country - we are letting in millions of Mexicans but not letting in the actual talent from other countries, while at the same time our country's conservative roll is making it less likely that gays, recent college grads, various people of color, etc., will make a contribution.

Florida mentions gays more than once or twice. I totally agree with him - and he also mentioned the alienation of recent college grads.


..

"He argues that the loss of even a few geniuses can have tremendous impact, adding that the "overblown" economic threat posed by large nations such as China and India obscures all the little blows inflicted upon the U.S. by Canada, Scandinavia, New Zealand and other countries with more open political climates. Florida lays his case out well and devotes a significant portion of this polemical analysis to defending his earlier book's argument regarding "technology, talent, and tolerance" (i.e. that together, they generate economic clout, so the U.S. should be more progressive on gay rights and government spending). He does so because that book contains what he sees as the way out of the dilemma—a new American society that can "tap the full creative capabilities of every human being." Even when he drills down to less panoramic vistas, however, Florida remains an astute observer of what makes economic communities tick..."

...

On a personal note, I am totally aware of this problem in my own world. In the work world, the resumes I see, the neighborhoods I live in, the pushing out of the real innovators and creatives by ridiculous hate.

Florida puts an educated, research spin on something I've been feeling for the past 5 years. I used to be surrounded by some incredibly wonderful people; the past few years have been bereft of any of that creativity and vibrance. I don't speak of it much because everyone says "oh those were the dotcom years, of course." But I've felt an especially awful sense that we are going downhill in the absence of these people.
Permalink sharkfish 
January 1st, 2006
He talked about this Olympic skater:

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060101/SPORTS07/601010309/1136

To paraphrase, we are having to make special arrangements to bring her here? Stupid. There are bigger picture issues that require us to become more open.

On homogenization of our Chicago neighborhoods is the perfect example of the ruination of our country.

Homogenizing/gentrification is pricing out the creative classes. Conservatives are ruining this country; scared of urbanization. We creatives no longer have reason to believe.
Permalink sharkfish 
January 1st, 2006
Just one more example of an obviously superior arrangement being presented to Americans in a clear, concise way and being thoroughly ignored because *it'll never happen*.
Permalink Flasher T 
January 1st, 2006
Do you think a popular President could change national public opinion (granted, not overnight, but over four years) about tolerance towards homosexuals? Just a simple "Let's live and let live" philosophy.
For real giggles, you could always go with "are we saying that religious intolerance is good? Saudi Arabia style intolerance?" ;)

Philo
Permalink Philo 
January 1st, 2006
Philo - I think it's quite obvious that the current president has created a lot of *in*tolerance over his first term alone. Hopefully it could be done the other way around.

Was there a similar abundance of intolerance and religious lunacy under Clinton?
Permalink Flasher T 
January 1st, 2006
Duh - not the current President. I'm just wondering if you think *a* President could do it.

I agree on the current dork.

Philo
Permalink Philo 
January 1st, 2006
>Was there a similar abundance of intolerance and religious lunacy under Clinton?

"Get rid of the guy. Impeach him, censure him, assassinate him." -- Rep. James Hansen (R-UT)

Yes, that is why they honed their skills by attacking The Clenis™. They got their biggest boost under the regan empire when the fairness doctrine was repealed. Remember the Clinton Bodycount™? Where wingnuts added up the number of people allegedly murdered on orders from The Clenis™?

Universities recognized the harm of the current administrations crackdown on student visas for darkies several years ago. Smart people aren't coming to the US, in the numbers they used to, due to the difficulties in getting visas; they're going to other places like UK and Australia. We like to pretend that the US has the best and smartest universities. We don't, and they are getting stupider as the smart people stop coming here.

Combine that with the policization of science, and you've got Intelligent Design, Creationism, and the attacks on global warming as the new american nazi science: where political loyalty to the regime is far more important than how badly it fucks up the country.

"I tell people don't kill all the liberals. Leave enough so we can have two on every campus - living fossils - so we will never forget what these people stood for." -- Rush Limbaugh

Brain Drain? The wingnuts don't care. They'd be happy with limbaugh's foaming mouth where he wishes to murder everyone working at universities. Correction: all but 2 people at every university campus. Brings back Goebbels' comments about having to put jews in zoos, because shortly, there won't be enough of them for people to remember who they were.

http://www.thepoorman.net/2005/08/19/back-down-the-road-a-while/
Permalink Peter 
January 1st, 2006
"Smart people aren't coming to the US, in the numbers they used to, due to the difficulties in getting visas"

Do you think maybe they're not coming to the US because they just don't like it? :)

There's an interesting guy living right here in Tartu - he teaches at the university - Paul Goble, head of the Baltic desk at the CIA during the Cold War. Moved out of the States in protest to the current administration.
Permalink Flasher T 
January 1st, 2006
I really wish people could think in more than two colors.

Not everyone who's conservative, or non-Democrat, or thinks Clinton committed a crime belongs to the groups you are vilifying. Instead of painting with the broad strokes you take umbrage with when they come from the right, why don't you attack the zealots as zealots?

Not every liberal is a "hippie stoner"; not every conservative is a "corporate raider"

Philo
Permalink Philo 
January 1st, 2006
Yeah, but it's more fun this way. :)
Permalink Flasher T 
January 1st, 2006
"Brain Drain? The wingnuts don't care. They'd be happy with limbaugh's foaming mouth where he wishes to murder everyone working at universities."

Yup. The conservatives who run this country don't care and don't have the sophistication to understand why our cities are great. The people who live in them, however, do understand, and vote against the current administration in droves.

There's a reason why the south, back in the Civil War days, was left behind by the north; the evidence that creatives who moved north to escape the southern attitudes toward "differences" is great. Northern cities are the greatest cities in the world, compared to the south. That's because a lot of the close-minded people are down there.

Educated, creative people LIKE to be around strange, wierd, new things. If we are all the same, all homogenized, we are simply not going to attract these people. It isn't just "fashion" that encourages people to move to other countries.

Some of us who bitched about moving to Canada weren't just whining. Some of us saw the writing on the wall and made the escape to tolerance.
Permalink sharkfish 
January 1st, 2006
Well, I did move to Canada ... of course, it helps that I'm Canadian.

But yes, I've been less and less comfortable in the US over the past few years, over this and related issues.
Permalink Mongo 
January 1st, 2006
Read this: "The Right Nation: Conservative Power in America":

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0008EH6LE/qid=1136155673/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-8761712-0788166?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

After reading this book, I am depressingly convinced that it's just us - it's the way we are as a people.

Bush hasn't co-opted ANYTHING. He's there and the congress is republican because most of the public likes what they're saying and doing.

The current regime - not only the administration but the ascendancy of Wal-Mart patriotism and culture is just the self indulgence of the majority ... IMO.

Wouldn't matter who was president.
Permalink Bored Bystander 
January 1st, 2006
Gee, I thought the North had the better cities because the North was industrialized. Industrialization lets you produce more products with fewer people. More production with fewer people means higher wages. Higher wages means more money to spend on jazz clubs, subways, theater, museums, schools, libraries.

The South on the other hand was an agrarian society. This means lots of people planting and harvesting, but not a lot of money for improving production. Now, you could make the argument that they could have applied industrialization to improving agriculture, and didn't. They had cheap labor, so didn't see the need. And I would admit that's a fair point.

But an agrarian society also doesn't have the concentration of population that an industrialized city can support. And I'm not sure you could increase production in an agrarian society (even if you did apply industrialization to it) that you can get out of manufacturing.

On a related note, I understand Atlanta Georgia is becoming a technology hub for the South, based on its being a college town. Just a thought.
Permalink AllanL5 
January 1st, 2006
IIRC, there is still a significant brain drain from the UK to the US, although this is lessening.

Twisted immigration policies bring out the most sickening types of people and the worst behaviour in governments because there is little to no accountability.
Permalink Colm O'Connor 
January 1st, 2006
" Gee, I thought the North had the better cities because the North was industrialized."

Which came first, the creators of the technology to make the North industrialized, or the industrialization?
Permalink sharkfish 
January 1st, 2006
Hmm. Touche, I think.

Well, the North was where the coal was, and the iron, and the steel. And it was cold up there, in New York, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Chicago, especially New England. So, a shorter growing season, and more incentive to be creative.

We ARE talking about Civil-War era, right? That's 1860's or so, steam and iron technology. Steam engine rail-roads. Factories converting from water-wheel driven to steam-engine driven manufacturing. The beginning of mass-production with inter-changeable rifle parts. Still pretty primitive industrialization.

What WAS so wonderful about 1860's cities anyway, that would create the 'brain-drain' from the South?
Permalink AllanL5 
January 1st, 2006
Ah, reread your post. Right, the South was pretty anglo-saxon protestant-centric. There would be an incentive for clever out-casts to head north, and clever in-group people to stay put and continue the status quo.
Permalink AllanL5 
January 1st, 2006
---"Northern cities are the greatest cities in the world, compared to the south."------

I think you're forgetting to factor in the weather.:)

I would also suggest that the quality of cities has a lot to do with whether they were built before or after the advent of the car.

There is also a massive influx of brain power into the States from Europe, South America and Asia.
Permalink Stephen Jones 
January 2nd, 2006
"I would also suggest that the quality of cities has a lot to do with whether they were built before or after the advent of the car."

LA vs. NYC? I'll take NYC, because at least you can walk around it. ;)

Philo
Permalink Philo 
January 2nd, 2006
"There is also a massive influx of brain power into the States from Europe, South America and Asia."

According to the author, those statistics have reduced dramatically.

I think the creative brain drain MIGHT have explained the Civil War era exodus to the north. I am sure it doesn't explain it in totality.
Permalink sharkfish 
January 2nd, 2006
Yea, you get the idea. The population density necessary to sustain the attractions of a world class city is normally only seen in those that were not made car-friendly.

Barcelona, Paris, Prague, Riga, Marrakesh, Beiruit.
Permalink Stephen Jones 
January 2nd, 2006
I guess I am a spoiled canadian.

How can one live in a place with no Universal Healthcare?

(You've got to agree I have brain, right?)
Permalink Rick Tang 
January 3rd, 2006
Sorry Rick, lots of people live in a place without Universal Healthcare.

Living is easy. It's being sick without Health Insurance that's no picnic.
Permalink AllanL5 
January 3rd, 2006
It depends as to what you mean by a brain drain.

If the north was really as sophisticated as some might have mensioned then why are Massachusetts and now New York (along with DC) places where the population is shrinking...shinking population means companies cannot find enough people which means they tend to close. It also means less customers which means less profit. This isn't anything political as I'm on the right and I know people that are Moveon.org members who are planning on leaving as well. It simply is far to expensive to live here.

Also there were riots with reguards to public school buses being desegragated back in the 70's.

Another thing that's odd you don't hear about is that frankly it's not exactly that safe up here.

Remember the 2000 debate between Bush and Gore? Well UMass Boston at the time was headed by Billy Bulger....his brother (whitey) is known for being in the mob and being on the run due to a botched informant in the early 90's. His murders go back a good 10-15 years if not longer. Well right across from UMass boston in quincy while the debate was going on dead bodies of his victems (read mass graves) were found.

Now this wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for the fact that the Boston strangler STILL hasn't been caught although it's been more than 40 years. About a dozen people murdered by someone(s) and yet no one was charged except DeSalvo whos dna proved he didn't do it!

We just had four people this past month shot in a basement and killed. No one knows who killed them but no one is really speaking. It's nearly like Bosnia here....
Permalink Matt 
January 3rd, 2006

This topic was orginally posted to the off-topic forum of the
Joel on Software discussion board.

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