Give ne back my hat!

An open letter to tube/metro/subway users

Went to a party yesterday after work, and had to take the tube. Shit commute. By the time I got off, I was ready to get really mediaeval on a few people's asses.

Why do people want to get on the tube, at rush hour, with a child in a perambulator. Why? Why? Why?

Again, why bring kids at rush hour. This dude on the tube had four. All really young, below the age of 6 or so. The tube is fucking packed you moron. Not safe for the kids.

Sometimes the carriage is full. Honest. Yelling “please move in” just adds hot air to the carriage. Shut the fuck up and wait for the next train.

Plan your route. Follow the signs when changing lines. Do not suddenly stop, look up at the sign, then your map. If you do not know where you are going, do a practice run during the afternoon when no-one is around.

General escalator rules. Stand on the right, pass on the left. Do not make me do a zig zag because you decided to be different and stand on the left. Ken should start adding points to people who violate these rules. 12 points and you are banned from the tube.

And why, in the name of <insert deity of choice> do people think I want to hear whatever crap they are playing on their ipods. If I did, I would get my own. The personal in Personal Stereo means for your ears only. I think I should carry a set of pliers for those loud headphones. And it will only get worse when cellphones start working on the tube. Grrr

Personal hygiene. If you cannot afford deodorant, you really should not be using the tube. Summer is coming and it is going to get worse. I feel so sorry for all the short people whose faces/noses are at armpit level when standing. It really can’t be good down there.

And please, please for the love of Christ, get your ticket ready before you get to the barriers. Getting there and then fumbling for your purse/wallet is not cool. You know there are going to be barriers. You know you need your ticket to get out. Don't make me wait in line behind you.

Oh yeah, if the tube is packed, please do not insist on trying to carry on reading your Evening Standard. And it is always evening standard readers. There is no room! Do not try and turn the page! Do not stick your crummy paper in my face. Whatever news or celebrity gossip you are reading, it can wait. Honest.

One more thing before I leave. Let me get off the train before you shove yourself on. There is more room on the platform than there is in the carriage. If you really need me to explain why it is better for *both* of us if you let me off first, then come over to mine. I have a golf club I would like to introduce to you.

Bloody Heathens! Just ignant I say, just ignant!
Permalink Send private email Tapiwa 2.0 
April 27th, 2006 8:13am
Be thankful you're not shot in the head for looking slightly foreign.
Permalink Send private email كولم 
April 27th, 2006 8:57am
True, and the cops who did it got off scott free.

More Heatens
Permalink Send private email Tapiwa 2.0 
April 27th, 2006 8:59am
Maybe you could get this published in the Evening Standard, make an impact
Permalink what are you reading for? 
April 27th, 2006 9:01am
Woo. Things haven't changed much.

Mobile phone are going to tip you over the edge. Yakketty yak, clikkety clack. "Ohhhh, yeahhhh, I'm on the trainnnn ..."

Can't you travel offpeak? Start REAL early, and skedaddle before the lemmings go home?
Permalink trollop 
April 27th, 2006 9:01am
"Again, why bring kids at rush hour. This dude on the tube had four. All really young, below the age of 6 or so. The tube is fucking packed you moron. Not safe for the kids."

If the guy had 4 kids with him, I'm going to go on a limb and say that he had an even more important reason to use the tube than you. People with kids do have to do things with said kids occasionally, and sometimes they can't conveniently do it off rush hour.

As an aside - are you talking about the tube in London, or a subway somewhere else? I'd presume London by the word "tube", however you mentioned that escalators have standing right/walking left. I presume that in London that standard is inverted?
Permalink Send private email Dennis Forbes 
April 27th, 2006 9:13am
Except for the ticketing issue (everyone here in HK uses prepaid touch cards caled "Octopus Cards"), I can relate to every single issue - *especially* the people with prams/strollers and the idiots blocking the escalators.

For me, the most HULK SMASH! moments relating to mass transit occur when the mongoloid parents with strollers take the them onto the damned escalators, completely blocking the way up like a blood clot in a teensy narrow capillary.
Permalink possibly maybe 
April 27th, 2006 9:14am
---"when the mongoloid parents with strollers take the them onto the damned escalators"---

Perhaps I'm sensitive given that I'm a parent of young children, but try to have some context -- they have to get places to, you know.

Not replying to you, but on the topic of kids: Having kids one thing I've learned is that you can have the best behaved children, and you can do everything possible to be considerate for other people, but you'll inevitable draw the dirty looks from the judgemental asswipes angry about life, wanting to tear someone down. I've taken to either giving them nasty looks back (the cowards -always- quickly turn away, wilting under my nasty reply), or verbally asking them what their problem is (in a pseudo-polite Go-Fuck-Yourself sort of voice).

When I'm in a low-rent FAMILY restaurant and some moronic douche bags, pretending that they're at an exclusive adult eatery, DARE to give me a look because my daughter sings a bit (my kids are lower than 99% of adults in places like this, but if they make a peep the looks start coming), or my son drops his fork, it takes every ounce of restraint not to smash them in the head when their wings and nachos platter, and to give them some perspective on how idiotic they really are.
Permalink Send private email Dennis Forbes 
April 27th, 2006 9:33am
i'm kind of an ass when it comes to reading on the subway.

even when it's mad crowded, i'll break out my book and try and read.  it makes the ride hom 100% more tolerable so it's something i'm not willing to give up easily.  hey, if kids with huge backpacks or adults with laptops/briefcases won't take their bags off and place them by their feet, i'm keeping my book...
Permalink Kenny™ 
April 27th, 2006 9:34am
lower meaning quieter in that post
Permalink Send private email Dennis Forbes 
April 27th, 2006 9:34am
He references Ken, so I'd definitely say London.

And you'd think people would stand on the left in London, but they don't. It's quite confusing.

And why the fuck is the prepaid card called Oyster? Or Octopus for that matter?
Permalink Send private email Flasher T 
April 27th, 2006 9:38am
Hi Dennis

good to see you around here. I am not against kids. I just think that the guy with the kids has more options on when to travel. The District line gets pretty rickety, and when you are worring about trying to keep your feet on the ground, the last thing you want to worry about is that you will trample some poor kid standing next to you. The dude had a buggy, admittedly folded, one kid in his arm, and the other arm alternating between holding the buggy up, and keeping his balance.

Most of the people in rush hour have McJobs. They come in at 9, and leave at 5 on the dot. You really do not want to be dragging 4 kids through that.

oh yeah, I am in London, and the escalator standard is stand right, pass on the left.

In other news, we also have touch cards here. Oyster cards they call them. (something fishy here, Oysters and Octopus). A lot of people have not converted though, despite the fact that they were launched obout two years ago, if not longer. Also, day and single tickets are still old fashioned paper tickets.

To Trollop. I usually work late, and so avoid the madding crowds. Just had to go to some shindig in the west end, and could not get a taxi, so tubed it.
Permalink Send private email Tapiwa 2.0 
April 27th, 2006 9:43am
Tapiwa -

Even if you're not working late, you could stop for a coffee, or take a walk, or make some calls on your cell, or read a book for an hour.  YOU yourself have lots of options regarding your travel time, you just choose not to exercise them (which is stupid) and then blame some guy and his kids for your unwillingness to adjust YOUR schedule (which is even stupider).

Sorry dude, you say some smart things but this OP isn't one of them.
Permalink Send private email Cheddar Beaverpants 
April 27th, 2006 9:46am
From memory Tapiwa is a black guy working in the Financial services industry in London. So yes, we're talking about London - at a guess the Central line (open 1900).

Buggies/Strollers.  Given that a lot of the tube network inside zone 1 was built before the First World War most is not buggy friendly and I'd advise anyone visiting to fold the buggy up and carry your sprog...or take the bus.
Permalink Send private email a cynic writes... 
April 27th, 2006 9:55am
Reading on the subway, uness you're reading aloud, hardly inconveniences anyone.  Go one with your bad self.

Dennis, it's not about hating life.  I love life.  I'm happily married, in the prime of my life, doing well professionally with great prospcts moving forward, etc.  My wife and I smile and laugh all the time.  I just don't appreciate being jerked around by thoughtless/inconsiderate people.

If you're honest with yourself, you'd have to admit that the number of situations requiring parents to take multiple small children (too young to get around under their own power) out on the town simultaneously are pretty few and far between.  Take the one that needs to go out wherever they need to go and carry them as necessary and leave the rest at home with the other parent or a sitter (yup, the cost of incidentals like hiring a sitter who won't accidentally kill you're kid while you're out of the house for a few hours is one of those expenses, like diapers and toys, that you're supposed to consider when making decisions about reproducing). If you've got to take more than one kid out, then have one adult per child on hand to supervise them and, if necessary (too small to get around on their own), carry them.  For God's sake, though, dont push your way into constricted, high-traffic areas like subway stations with kids in baby carriages - you take up as much space as a turn-of-the-century vegetable cart and vendor. 

Escalators are made to move standing/walking people, not to carry cargo.  If you insist on taking children through mass transit in strollers (good on you for using up the seatless spaces on subway cars intended for the handicapped, folks in wheelchairs, etc.!), then, when you get off, at least have the decency to look for an elevator instead of backing the stroller up onto the escalator when you *know* that its going to block everyone behid you who might want to walk past.

We don't have kids of our own (we're going to cheat our kids by pooping them out before we're ready), but we have two nephews and we've been taking them out all the time (since they were just babies) - to parks, museums, bookstores, libraries, etc.  They ride with us on public transit when we go out.

There's a right way and a wrong way to do everything, though.  There are two of them and two of us.  When we need to go up or down flights of stairs, we pick them up and carry them because, though they can walk, they need their hands held on stairs and we don't want to screw over all of the *other* people trying to get up and down the stairs.  Wherever we are, we don't allow them to run around screeching and making everyone else uncomfortable.  When we're around other kids whose families haven't raised them properly, they're able to see how those kids' misbehavior bothers everyone else (it's written on their faces - the "dirty looks" you're talking about).

Our nephews are happy, well-adjusted kids.  Its possible to be inquisitive and talkative without being loud and imbecilic.
Permalink possibly maybe 
April 27th, 2006 9:57am
Ok - so it was the District (opened 1868-1905) - which believe or not is not as bad as the Central.  I use both most days.
Permalink Send private email a cynic writes... 
April 27th, 2006 10:00am
BigCheese, I think you misread my post.

Have no issues with kids. I just don't think that taking four kids, one in hand, and a buggy, is the best thing a parent could do.

I adjust my schedule. Just happened to need to take the tube during rush hour.

If I had kids, I certainly would not take them on a tube at peak hours. With all the shuffling and jostling as people get on and off, your kid could wander of at the wrong station, and you might not even notice.

Take a ride on the District line. Sudden braking, some really rough patches of rail. Your kid could fall over.

Would you risk taking four kids, on your own, with a buggy, during the rush hour.

I still think the man was ignant!
Permalink Send private email Tapiwa 2.0 
April 27th, 2006 10:01am
This sounds like a couple of young guys with total contempt for slightly older folks (or even their peers) who have children.

Gee, how untypical of young guys to totally objectify and then dismiss any archetype/stereotype that they don't personally belong to.  I've NEVER heard THIS type of rant before...

::yawn::
Permalink Send private email Cheddar Beaverpants 
April 27th, 2006 10:01am
Flasher T - I have no clue why they're called "Octopus Cards".  My wife, who grew up here, offered up the theory that the name comes from the fact that the cards can be used in so many places (bus, minibus, train fares as well as in convenience stores and lots of other small shops/cafes) that the card's reach is like that of an octopus (many arms and all that).
Permalink possibly maybe 
April 27th, 2006 10:02am
Wow.

"but we have two nephews and we've been taking them out all the time"

It's always the "we once took a related kid out and we were models of civility" that feel that they're great bastions of advice on parenting. It's never, you know, actual parents.

"it's written on their faces - the "dirty looks" you're talking about"

By this you of course are implying that I haven't raised my 3 and 1 year old properly. I'll properly take offense, and say that you're a fucking idiot on matters of parenting, evident in the rest of your nonsensical, judgemental, "they can suck it up and go to great extremes so that I don't dare be inconvenienced in any ways" (jesus - how do you feel about the handicapped? Should they suck it up and hire someone to drag them around. Maybe they should just stay at home?), however my children are extraordinarily well behave children -- yet I -still- get the looks. Looks by the "I took my nephews out so I'm not an expert on parenting" idiots, usually childless-and-angry-about-it couples that feel that they have some sort of wisdom to bless the rest of us with.
Permalink Send private email Dennis Forbes 
April 27th, 2006 10:03am
Too late Dennis I just covered that.
Permalink Send private email Cheddar Beaverpants 
April 27th, 2006 10:04am
Oh and the problem with someone else reading the newspaper is that harmless as it is - having the corner of the page jammed in your left ear or up your nostril is bloody irritating... and yes they do.
Permalink Send private email a cynic writes... 
April 27th, 2006 10:05am
Again, to clarify:  I love kids, especially my nephews.  We take them out all the time, but we do it in such a way as to cause the rest of society the least possible inconvenience and we're doing our best to help them to grow up to be intelligent and thoughtful instead of the self-centered, spoiled little brats that so many other folks are doing their damnedest to churn out.
Permalink possibly maybe 
April 27th, 2006 10:05am
possibly -

You haven't yet demonstrated how a guy taking his four kids out is teaching them to be entitled spoiled brats by riding the subway.
Permalink Send private email Cheddar Beaverpants 
April 27th, 2006 10:07am
We take our nephews out every Sunday and usually once or twice during the middle of the week - "out" meaning to a museum or library or someplace that can't be reached without changing trains a few times.

It's possible to take children out in a responsible way without shafting everyone else who, themselves, are just trying to get along and live their own lives.

The fact that you're taking umbrage and seem to be of the opinion that the whole rest of the world has to make way for you and your spawn because *of course* it's unreasonable for the rest of us to expect you to conduct yourselves like rational, considerate human beings (YOU'RE PARENTS FOR GOD'S SAKE!!!!! UHHHH!!!!) ... cracks me up.  :)
Permalink possibly maybe 
April 27th, 2006 10:11am
"It's possible to take children out in a responsible way without shafting everyone else who, themselves, are just trying to get along and live their own lives.

The fact that you're taking umbrage and seem to be of the opinion that the whole rest of the world has to make way for you and your spawn because *of course* it's unreasonable for the rest of us to expect you to conduct yourselves like rational, considerate human beings (YOU'RE PARENTS FOR GOD'S SAKE!!!!! UHHHH!!!!) ... cracks me up.  :)"

You still haven't demonstrated how taking my children out is a burden on the rest of society.  You seem to be arguing that children aren't human beings who deserve a seat on public transportation.
Permalink Send private email Cheddar Beaverpants 
April 27th, 2006 10:13am
>You haven't yet demonstrated how a guy taking his four kids
>out is teaching them to be entitled spoiled brats by riding
>the subway.

Four young kids + 1 guy = inadequate supervision

On it's face (unless we're talking about teenagers or exceptionally mature and well-behaved preteens), its probably not going to go well.

If all of the kids are ambulatory and know to keep to the right on stairs and escalators and the group does't insit on walking down narrow corridors 5-abreast, then it might be fine.

I have yet to see a group comprised of a lone adult and 2+ kids under the age of 6 presenting the rest of a group of commuters with anything other than an enormous assache however.
Permalink possibly maybe 
April 27th, 2006 10:15am
assache
Permalink possibly maybe 
April 27th, 2006 10:15am
So now what you're telling me is that small children are the only people who don't behave with perfect courtesy in public places?

I think your aggression is misplaced.  I think it's very very obvious to everyone but you.
Permalink Send private email Cheddar Beaverpants 
April 27th, 2006 10:16am
"The fact that you're taking umbrage"...

We're taking umbrage because it's an ignorant perspective. You have -no idea- why the man had to go through the enormous difficulty of taking four children out during rush hour -- maybe one had a medical appointment, or he had to bring them to the lawyers, or his wife's, or whatever. I wouldn't even imagine casting judgement on someone in such a situation, anymore than I'd dream about bitching about the guy in the wheelchair ("Man! Surely that guy has no reason to be out. He could have saved us all the trouble by not being so selfish!").

Complaining about someone with a stroller on an escalator garners no sympathy unless a) there is an alternative elevator that works, which often isn't the case, especially in older areas, b) the escalator was such an extraordinary consumption of your time that it merits mention. Most escalators are about a 30 - 45 second journey -- wow, what a selfish imposition on your busy life.

"the whole rest of the world has to make way for you and your spawn"

If I want to go on the subway, what the hell are -you- doing crowding up the thing? Why are you forcing me and the rest of the commuters to make way for YOU?

I think the crux of your problem is that you see a man with 4 children as being 1 person with 4 annoying little satellites. See, I see 5 people, which quite clearly trumps your rights (in fact, presuambly you make way for THEM, given that they have 5x the human rights than you do).

" (YOU'RE PARENTS FOR GOD'S SAKE!!!!! UHHHH!!!!) ... cracks me up.  :)"

I remember in high school when you'd hear the dateless wonder nerd going on endlessly about how he doesn't have an SO, but when that day comes he's going to be the best damn boyfriend ever. He's going to buy her roses every day and treat her like a real woman. He's not going to be like all those other jerks. Blah blah blah blah blah. You sound just like that -- A desparate position chosen out of convenience.

You sound remarkably like that.
Permalink Send private email Dennis Forbes 
April 27th, 2006 10:20am
The adults with little kids are the most aggravating case because I'm not willing to push my way through a knot of little kids to get past them on an escalator when they've forgotten (or have never been taught) escalator etiquette.  With adults I'll just say "excuse me" (or the Cantonese equivalent) and shoulder through.

If you want to go over all of the lesser annoyances (for exaple I had a lady sitting next to me on the train clipping her nails last week), feel free to start a separate thread and solicit my input. :)
Permalink possibly maybe 
April 27th, 2006 10:20am
Cheddar,

"So now what you're telling me is that small children are the only people who don't behave with perfect courtesy in public places?"

People like possibly have that sort of filter. I mentioned the family restaurant situation because it really is remarkable -- rowdy groups, loud laughter, drunks, etc. All unnoticed. One of my children makes a noise and instantly people like possibly are probing around, reading with the judgemental looks.

I personally attribute it to people with child envy. Whether by nature, circumstance, or an inability to commit to maturity (usually with hilarious justifications like "we're waiting until we're ready". It's always good to wait until you have a high probability of dying of natural causes when you're children are 10), these particular people feel that they represent the ultimate in parenting, but their opportunity just hasn't come yet. Until then they're on a mission to evil-eye anyone who has children.
Permalink Send private email Dennis Forbes 
April 27th, 2006 10:23am
Geez, sorry about my illiterate replies. Trying to talk on the phone at the same time isn't beneficial to writing skills.
Permalink Send private email Dennis Forbes 
April 27th, 2006 10:25am
Dennis, with that last paragraph you're trying to take the discussion off on an interesting little tangent.  If I'm supposed to be the forerly dateless geek whose now found true love and a fulfilling career (or whatever your wacked-out little fantasy of me might be), does that make you the former high school quarterback, now morbidly obese with a harridan of a wife and a tribe of good-for-nothing kids for whom you work a dead-end job? 

*shrug*
Permalink possibly maybe 
April 27th, 2006 10:26am
I'm not with 'possibly maybe' on the kids behaving issue.I think kids should be allowed to be kids. Hell, I goof around in the office.

One thing I do totally agree with him on, is that there is a right and wrong way of doing something.

I don't have kids of my own, but I still insist that one adult, with a buggy, and four kids, during rush hour, is the wrong way of doing it.

People, you are missing the point. It is not the kid's presence that annoyed me. It was the fact that I think 1 guy + 4 kids, during rush hour is putting the kids at risk. If he really had to get somewhere urgently, fine. Just seemed like a day out with the kids to me.

Will repeat. It is the safety of the kids I was worried about. The fact that I perceived the man as putting them at risk is why I thought he needed a slap over the head.

The kids were cool. The man was ignant.
Permalink Send private email Tapiwa 2.0 
April 27th, 2006 10:27am
If it helps clarify the issue I would avoid taking any of the three under-10s we currently have staying with us on the central section of the Underground during rush hour and would be reluctant to take any of the other 70 kids we've had of whatever age. 

Not because they would upset people - which is plausible given some of them - but because the chances of them getting squashed is pretty high. I get squashed and I'm almost 40.

You can get back to bickering now...
Permalink Send private email a cynic writes... 
April 27th, 2006 10:29am
possibly,

I was a high school loner nerd, and I'm certainly not ashamed of it. Quite a dateless wonder, as a natural result (though apparently I had far more options than I was aware of. The ladies started to believe that I was gay given my shyness).

Nonetheless, I -always- had my head screwed on, and I knew how to separate unrealistic idealism from practical reality. I knew that peers saying that sort of nonsense were morons. History has proven me entirely right.
Permalink Send private email Dennis Forbes 
April 27th, 2006 10:29am
cynic hit the nail on the head!

yay, I think we might have consensus.
Permalink Send private email Tapiwa 2.0 
April 27th, 2006 10:35am
I think possibly maybe is just trolling.  We only have one kid, so his complaint doesn't apply to us, but my attitude is "fuck you, I'll take my kid wherever I want, screw your tiny bit of inconvenience."

We don't bus much here, but on trips we've taken a fairly large stroller and didn't care about the space we used.  We took our large stroller to Venice, had no qualms about loading it on and off the vapporatos (water buses), or the buses in Rome.

We take elevaotrs if possible, but will take the escalator if necessary.  Any group of 5 is likely to block an escalator, but yeah, a group w/ 4 kids is probably not going to be able to move aside when asked.  Screw you, it's just a short escalator ride.

Re: restaurants, dirty looks: I think it helps to have Chinese in-laws.  People who are used to the anything goes scrums at Dim Sum don't pay much attention to dropped cutlery, and since Cantonese is basically always yelled, a bit of singing wouldn't be noticed.

So then when we go to a nicer place, we couldn't care  less if anyone looks unhappy.  Our daughter's usually very good in restaurants but if she's singing, I'm probably singing with her and I don't give a damn if someone's giving me a dirty look.
Permalink Send private email Ward 
April 27th, 2006 10:35am
Dennis: congratulations.  You've seem to have come pretty much full-circle - from the notion that it's your right to shit all over everyone else because you successfully reproduced to the idea that you and your family shouldn't make anyone else's lives any more stressful than they already are.

Evidence ...

You acknowledge that it's better for adults with kids in strollers to take eleators when they're available but are hedging that they're usually either not available at all or out of service.  If you live in the USA, of course, that's pure bs because elevators or some sort of wide ramps are needed to accomodate the handicapped.  Other civilized places generally have similar laws. 

You stress that your kids only get noisy in places that are already loud/noisy (from your description, you've got me thinking that you're talking about Roadhouse-like dive bars where people are shivving each other and breaking pool cues over other patrons' heads, but whatever).  Obviously, if your kids are singing nursery rhymes, even in shrill tones in the middle of some sort of bar brawl, I agree that anyone giving you mean looks is probably a bit out of their heads.

etc. etc.

Welcome back to the brotherhood of humankind!
Permalink possibly maybe 
April 27th, 2006 10:40am
>We only have one kid, so his complaint doesn't apply to us,
>but my attitude is "fuck you, I'll take my kid wherever I
>want, screw your tiny bit of inconvenience."

Right back 'atcha friend.  My attitude is pity for your kid and a big 'ol Screw you.  Your kid probably may not know any better and won't until he gets a bit older but, if we're on a two-person-wide escalator and you and your child are standing side by side, you will either make way after a polite "excuse me" or I will help you move.
Permalink possibly maybe 
April 27th, 2006 10:44am
possibly,

" You've seem to have come pretty much full-circle - from the notion that it's your right to shit all over everyone else because you successfully reproduced to the idea that you and your family shouldn't make anyone else's lives any more stressful than they already are."

Fascinating interpretation.

Do you mind pointing out where I ever indicated ANYTHING that implied that it's my right to shit all over everyone else? I'm really curious how your brain parser is interpreting things, because I'm guessing it's quite defective.

"You acknowledge that it's better for adults with kids in strollers to take elevators"

Actually I say this largely for safety reasons. Elevators are safer for strollers.

"If you live in the USA, of course, that's pure bs because elevators or some sort of wide ramps are needed to accomodate the handicapped."

The original discussion is about a century old+ tube system. There -are- situations where there are no alternatives to stairs/escalators. I have a mall in my town that has one set of elevators -- on the extreme end of the mall (in a large department store) -- so I'm more forgiving when someone brings a stroller up an escalator on the other end. For every stroller I've ever seen blocking an escalator, I've seen hundreds -- neigh thousands -- of side by side people standing still and chatting.
Permalink Send private email Dennis Forbes 
April 27th, 2006 10:47am
Also I laughed out loud at the "Cantonese is basically always yelled" bit.  Are your in-laws pig farmers from Guangdong?

Cantonese is a tonal language but getting the tones right/distinct doesn't mandate yelping it out like a dog.  No one I know except poor immigrants from the mainland or villager grandmas talking to their own 90-year-old, hard of hearing, aunties "yells out" their Cantonese.
Permalink possibly maybe 
April 27th, 2006 10:48am
"You stress that your kids only get noisy in places that are already loud/noisy (from your description, you've got me thinking that you're talking about Roadhouse-like dive bars where people are shivving each other and breaking pool cues over other patrons' heads, but whatever)."

Firstly, I never said they "get noisy". I said that they make -any- noise. To people like you, any noise is the same as an out of control, loud mouthed brat. Cue your look of square faced consternation.

And family restaurants, my dear friend, are places like Turtle Jacks, Kelseys, East Side Marios -- any of those sorts of family-style restaurants where waiters are singing and customers are loud. Still doesn't stop the unfulfilled middle aged couple from pretending that they're at Le Trouffant, giving dirty looks to anyone who dared leave their house with a child (damn selfish people!).
Permalink Send private email Dennis Forbes 
April 27th, 2006 10:50am
If the waiters are singing, then you've basically got a license to behave however you like, hort of flinging food at other customers.

:)

You should have mentioned the singing waiters initially.
Permalink possibly maybe 
April 27th, 2006 10:57am
>>> No one I know except

They don't have Dim Sum where you are?  I thought the restaurants here were bad, god, the ones in Hong Kong you could hardly hear yourself.  Even a "suburb" (Shatin) was insane.
Permalink Send private email Ward 
April 27th, 2006 11:27am
Sha Tin is in the New Territories, which, to the stratum of HK society that would sort of match American middle class, is basically the boonies - where the minibus drivers, cooks, etc. live.  Most of those folks are former or current villagers or recent arrivals from the mainland.  In the hills you've got the bandits/illegal immigrants who haven't been able to integrate into society yet, and smugglers digging up plants like Buddhist pines to be sent back to the mainland and made into traditional Chinese medicines. 

They may have domestic help of their own at home (legal Pinay or Indonesian maid or illegal PRC maid who they've brought in because she can make dumplings just like mom used to make - not to mention the fact that they can pay her significantly less than the govt.-mandated minimum for servants), but they're generally grubby and uneducated compared to the folks who can afford to live in Kowloon and on the island.  Kowloon'ers and people who reside on HK island generally seem to come to the NT solely to go hiking in a park and get stabbed by the bandits/illegal immigrants. 

Not coincidentally, dim sum places (and public housing estates) are thinner on the ground in the higher-rent districts.  I live in the NT myself because its more convenient for my wife (people like teachers and social workers are more in-demand in the NT), so my neighbors are minibus drivers, Chinese medicine practitioners, and the like, but better-educated, professional people tend to eat at pricey hotel buffets, Japanese places, etc. and not scream Cantonese across tables strewn with bamboo steamers full of pork buns.
Permalink possibly maybe 
April 27th, 2006 11:44am
Society is in big trouble when kids in public is an awful inconvenience. You idiots who can't bear to make way for a little one with a smile and maybe even "Hello, young man. After you!" are the ones that are screwing up future generations. If you are that freaking busy and put out, my guess is you're entirely unhappy (though you may not know it), and incredibly self centered.
Permalink Send private email BigJigger 
April 27th, 2006 12:16pm
But of course, you love kids. They are so cute and fasionable when worn in the appropriate season and under complete control.
Permalink Send private email BigJigger 
April 27th, 2006 12:18pm
Big Jigger, if you want to live out Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn fantasies vicariously through your children, then I would advise buying a shack somewhere out in the middle of nowhere and stocking up on the sorts of old-timey props you'll need.  If Muppet can find a log cabin to buy, then I'm sure there's a mud and whicker lean-to or a sod house somewhere in the Midwest with your name on it.

The modern world is pretty darned crowded, complex, and fast-paced.  Kids have to grow up a little bit sooner and good-manners-in-public-spaces is a part of that.

If you yearn for simpler times, when people weren't under tremense amounts of pressure and mostly trying to get through their days with the minimum amount of noise/fuss/agravation, and want to opt out, it's cool.  I honestly don't blame you.

Playing the yokel and just being a big, clueles inconvenience to everyone around you (and teaching your kids to be the same - "Tarnations! Ain't no way those high-falutin varmints are gonna make me and my kin keep to the right on an escalator!") is pretty blah, though.
Permalink possibly maybe 
April 27th, 2006 12:28pm
There's no longer any question that "possibly, maybe" is trolling.  He's either trolling or in serious need of psychiatric intervention, which is basically the same thing.
Permalink Send private email Cheddar Beaverpants 
April 27th, 2006 12:41pm
Muppet, you've trained your daughter to stand woodenly at your side on escalators, haven't you?

Jesus wept.
Permalink possibly maybe 
April 27th, 2006 12:45pm
We go up and down escalators two abreast, because in Connecticut there are very few assholes who are in such a hurry that they must CLIMB the MOVING escalator in order to get on with their busy day.  Most people leave their homes on time or else don't expect the world to accomodate them when they don't.
Permalink Send private email Cheddar Beaverpants 
April 27th, 2006 12:47pm
>We go up and down escalators two abreast, because in >Connecticut [piss-poor and barely-lucid excuse for rude, inconsiderate behavior]

In other words, you're an inconsiderate jerk.  At least you're honest about it and didn't try to pull the old "Of course, my kith and kin keep to the right on escalators but I have a friend who sometimes clots the escalators with his rusticated but charming Appalachian family and he's not a bad guy!" routine.
Permalink possibly maybe 
April 27th, 2006 12:53pm
Your troll has run it's course, possibly.  See, you've committed the first sin of trolling:  you've fallen in love with your troll and beaten it to death.

Try more variety, more quickly, and I think you'll do fine.
Permalink Send private email Cheddar Beaverpants 
April 27th, 2006 12:54pm
Is that last post the result of filling in, copying, and pasting some madlibs-style form on a "strategies for trying to get in the last word and win a pointless Intorweb argument" site?

>Your [noun] has [run it's course/reached the end of its
>tether/drawn to its natural conclusion], possibly.  See,
>you've [verb] the [noun] of [noun]:  you've [verb] with
your [noun] and [verb] it [too much/to death].


>Try more [noun], more [noun], and I think you'll do fine.

In Soviet Russia, last ditch attempts to stem the diarrhea-like tide of your own stupidity with lame pot-calls-kettle-black follow-on comments PWN YOU!
Permalink possibly maybe 
April 27th, 2006 1:00pm
Wow you get really upset when people call you on your nonsense.

Wild.
Permalink Send private email Cheddar Beaverpants 
April 27th, 2006 1:08pm
Are you projecting in earnest here, hyperventilating and banging out replies from your cubicle, or is suggesting that I'm "upset" just another silly tactic from your little internet arguments playbook?

I was a little ticked off when that lady's nail clipping bounced off my knee on the train last week (pretending that the next clipping had dinged me in the eye got her apoligizing profusely and the nail clippers put back into her purse), but your being rude and thoughtless over in Connecticut doesn't wind me up too much. :)

Talk with your mouth full, pick your nose in public, abstain from deoderant use, whatever puts a smile on your face.

It's all about equally boorish, I suppose.
Permalink possibly maybe 
April 27th, 2006 1:15pm
So basically every class Tapioca 2.0 castigated in his open letter has been defended.

Except the BO-ers.

I will defend the BO-ers.... You think it's our fault we smell? You think deoderant does anything besides add a patina of musk or pine or rose to our already fetid armpits and backs? You think we don't shower every morning like you hairless races?

We try. We try not to stink. It's an ever-Sisyphean battle. Especially in those crowded tube cars where we're forced to stretch our arms out and stench the whole world -- the fetal position would better fit our shame and reduce BO output at the same time.

So give us a little compassion, sir, too.
Permalink Moo Ng 
April 27th, 2006 4:07pm
possibly: If you live in HK, your ears are probably so blown out from the noise (and yelling) that what I call loug is normal for you.

You said New Territories not Sha Tin, but aren't all the malls the same?  We were at Sha Tin Town Center one Sunday and it was nuts - the crowds were about twice as dense as the busiest shopping center here is on the busiest days of the year (last-minute Christmas).

I guess on the HK side there weren't as many of the giant complexes with attached malls, but there the whole place was noisy.  It's not like it was quiet in Aberdeen, either.
Permalink Send private email Ward 
April 27th, 2006 7:10pm
Wow I missed this thread.

I just got off a crowded bus with

1.  woman with babe in a grocery cart, two 5-8 year olds trailing behind
2.  old woman on a 3 wheeled go cart
3.  old man sitting in front of younger man reading the newspaper: young guy clipped old man's ear with the paper and so the battle ensued--"Goddamnit put the motherfucking paper down you shit!" "NOO I can read my goddamn paper if I fucking want you old fart!"  Okay.
4.  Major funk-balls--three hard-working Mexicans and one old Polish guy (why does Polish funk travel so well)?

Anyway, public trans is an adventure.  The ONLY thing that galls me is the chirp of the 18-25 year old female on the cell phone saying "LIKE" every other word in a high-pitched shrill voice.  Right in my ear.

The rest I have tolerance for.  Just don't step on my foot.  That's all I ask.
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
April 27th, 2006 9:42pm
Sharky, I feel your pain bro.

And the govt still thinks that public transport is a better thing than own car!

I think. Blair should take the tube from time to time.
Permalink Send private email Tapiwa 2.0 
April 28th, 2006 6:18am

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