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Joel starts losing cred

http://reddit.com/info?id=151s

Traditionally, at least for its short history, Joel's articles shot to the top of Reddit in hours. This one has meandered at a middling level, despite the Joel fanboyz immediately consecrating anything Joel pushes out. Interesting seeing almost entirely negative comments, and a ranking far less than he previously got.
Permalink Backbiter 
January 31st, 2006 1:17pm
He's doing a lot of substance-free ranting lately.  I think that Joel is has moved on (as a business person and software developer) but the topics of his articles have not.
Permalink Send private email Almost H. Anonymous 
January 31st, 2006 1:22pm
So he's jumped the shark.
Permalink Send private email Bored Bystander 
January 31st, 2006 2:10pm
Jumped the Shark?
Permalink Some Random Dude 
January 31st, 2006 2:15pm
heh.
Permalink Send private email sharkfish 
January 31st, 2006 2:17pm
Shark, not sharkfish, shark.

Yeesh.
Permalink Send private email Simon Lucy 
January 31st, 2006 2:19pm
"Jumping the Shark" is I believe a term used for a sit-com, when all the 'good' ideas have been used, and outrageous ideas are tried instead.

I heard once that the "Happy Days" series actually had the Fonz try to jump on a shark, on one of the episodes.

I believe the term comes from this episode -- but I'll google it to make sure.
Permalink AllanL5 
January 31st, 2006 2:23pm
Snap.  Dual post.  Thanks.
Permalink AllanL5 
January 31st, 2006 2:23pm
The recent articles are intended only as an introduction.  these tend to be a little less interesting.

I really do not understand why people are so keen to put joel down.
is it jealousy? or are you just small minded cretins unable to move past the "ha! ha" mentality of small children?

Joel is just this guy.  get over it and stop punishing him for not being your god.
Permalink FullNameRequired 
January 31st, 2006 2:26pm
That's my understanding of where "jumped the shark" originated. I first read it four or five years ago.

In general it just means anything that is past its highest level of quality and is in decline. There is even a web site devoted to commentary on TV programs that have J.T.S.

Yeah, I thought "What Makes It Great?" was pretty hard-content-free.

It MAY be an introduction to something more substantial. As it is, it hardly says anything except that fashion is fickle.
BFD.

This article definitely does not stand by itself.
Permalink Send private email Bored Bystander 
January 31st, 2006 2:29pm
Ah, having googled it now, apparently Fonzie jumped OVER a shark, not ON it, as The Fonz was on water-skis.

The other stuff is true though.
Permalink AllanL5 
January 31st, 2006 2:42pm
Oh, and regarding Joel:

You can't hit a home-run every time.  I found JoS a couple of years ago, and his stuff was wonderful at the time.  Then, he got caught up in FogBugz and quit posting.

Recently, he's started posting more often, so I guess I need to go back and start reading his stuff again.  It's always a danger, once you've done something good, that your later stuff won't measure up.

As Ted Sturgeon said, 90% of everything is crud.  So you've got to keep producing, to find the 10% that is worthwhile.
Permalink AllanL5 
January 31st, 2006 2:44pm
FullNameRequired -

Joel exists as a cult of personality, and his star is rapidly fading. It's a simple observation, and is entirely relevant given that much of his ideas have momentum only because of his cult status. A lot of people are really tired of have Joelisms shoved in their face by every eager for an easy solution coworker, so it is rather satisfying.

You should keep up the good work defending poor maligned Joel though.
Permalink Backbiter 
January 31st, 2006 2:48pm
Oh and those "people" don't give a shit about Joel - he's irrelevant to them. They care about the fact that it's often hard to avoid the guy, with his lovers (such as you) desperately pushing Joel's agenda for him. They're putting down the cult of Joel rather than Joel himself, though he might get some collateral damage.
Permalink Backbiter 
January 31st, 2006 2:50pm
"Joel exists as a cult of personality, and his star is rapidly fading."

is it?  how do you know?  because the numbers of whingers putting him down are increasing?

now *theres* a worthy statistic.

"It's a simple observation, and is entirely relevant given that much of his ideas have momentum only because of his cult status."

actually no.  most of his ideas have momentum because they are on the whole common sense backup by with good writing.
I haven't ever seen much sign of his having a 'cult status', that seems to be an invention by those determined to put him down.

Mostly those people who enjoy his writing are those who are not threatened by the idea of a writer having ideas they agree with, ideas they dont agree with and ideas they find entirely irrelevant to their lives.

"A lot of people are really tired of have Joelisms shoved in their face by every eager for an easy solution coworker, so it is rather satisfying. "

<shrug> an idea is either a good idea or a bad idea.  whether or not it comes from joel is irrelevant to that.  Except to mentally deranged pigeons.

"You should keep up the good work defending poor maligned Joel though."

Im not particularly interested in defending Joel.  he will stand or fall on his own and I could care less which. 
I just dont really understand the intense, negative focus on Joel brought into play by people such as yourself.
If you dont enjoy his writings, then why do you bother to read them?  if you dont like him, then why do you keep posting about him?

is it because your life is entirely devoid of meaning *apart* from your dislike of Joel?
or is it just because you are a twat?
Permalink FullNameRequired 
January 31st, 2006 2:54pm
FNR, I like how you kept the personal attack for the very end.  And up to that point you had some very valid arguments.  Thanks.
Permalink AllanL5 
January 31st, 2006 2:57pm
"Oh and those "people" don't give a shit about Joel - he's irrelevant to them."

then why do they keep posting about him?  on and on and on and on...endless drivel about how bad he is, how much his ideas suck...

"They care about the fact that it's often hard to avoid the guy, with his lovers (such as you) desperately pushing Joel's agenda for him."

I defy you to find a single thread started by me about Joel.  in the old ?off, in joels own forums, or on here.  I just dont think that much about the guy except when another one of you endless whingers pollute my space with this pointless crap.

"They're putting down the cult of Joel rather than Joel himself, though he might get some collateral damage."

There is no cult of Joel.  except in the anti sense.  Almost every post I see about him outside of his own forums is like yours...irrelevant drivel prompted by jealousy and a small mind.
Permalink FullNameRequired 
January 31st, 2006 2:58pm
Are you really that much of a dip-shit that you so monumentously missed the point?

Yeah, Joel's lame, vacuous comments about design were so brilliant and earth shattering that they truly deserved to be spread far and wide by the Joelites, eagerly consuming whatever disposable wisdom Joel is dishing out today.

No, wait, no they weren't. Outside of the Joel camp there is a huge "Huh? What is this? Why am I seeing this appearing on blogs and on sites? This is completely useless nonsense".

Yet the Joelites continue to pimp it because once Joel was quite good, and these latecomers think that they can latch onto what once was by pretending that they've been elevated by it. More and more, though, Joel's contribution has to stand on what he's done lately, and the comments are getting uglier and uglier.

The next time you see a thread about Joel, how about staying out of it and protecting your sensitive Joel-protecting skin?
Permalink Backbiter 
January 31st, 2006 3:05pm
http://www.ectopia.us/196

Thumb down, Simon :)
Permalink Rick Tang 
January 31st, 2006 3:07pm
"Are you really that much of a dip-shit that you so monumentously missed the point? "

This thread appears *entirely* pointless to me, and each one of your posts appear to be the inane droolings of a mentally incapacitated worm.

So, yes. I am missing the point.  Im also mildly surprised to find that you beleive you have one.
You are clearly even more vacuous than I originally estimated.

"No, wait, no they weren't. Outside of the Joel camp there is a huge "Huh? What is this? Why am I seeing this appearing on blogs and on sites? This is completely useless nonsense"."

wow.  what I coincidence.  thats *exactly* how I feel about this thread.
Its empty, vacuous crap written by someone with absolutely no credibility, no skill at anythign and no ability to either think rationally or separate themselves from their poor, pathetic ego.

"More and more, though, Joel's contribution has to stand on what he's done lately, and the comments are getting uglier and uglier. "

right.  the comments in reddit.  and they matter because....? 
Im sure Joel lives in fear of another great panning.

"The next time you see a thread about Joel, how about staying out of it and protecting your sensitive Joel-protecting skin?"

meh.  Its this or actually do some work.

If you dislike Joel so much, and are so sick of hearing about him...why do you start endless threads about him?
Permalink FullNameRequired 
January 31st, 2006 3:14pm
You're Jesus H Christ aren't you?
Permalink Colm 
January 31st, 2006 3:15pm
wow.  there you go backbiter.  follow rick tangs thread.  see Simons first posting?

see, now *thats* a fairly decent attempt at an intelligent criticism.

notice how his criticisms amounted to more than 'we dont like joel so clearly he sucks'?

take notes my little retarded grasshopper.
Permalink FullNameRequired 
January 31st, 2006 3:17pm
"You're Jesus H Christ aren't you?"

welcome back colm.  always nice to see another member of the ?lost returning.
Permalink FullNameRequired 
January 31st, 2006 3:18pm
And strangely you think you're shooting me down. Amazing.
Permalink Backbiter 
January 31st, 2006 3:19pm
? I think what now?
Permalink FullNameRequired 
January 31st, 2006 3:20pm
Ooh, burn!  No, wait...
Permalink AllanL5 
January 31st, 2006 3:22pm
>welcome back colm.  always nice to see another member of
>the ?lost returning.

I never left. I was just without Internet for 10 days.
Permalink Colm 
January 31st, 2006 3:30pm
ah, I assed youd gotten lost in the shuffle to here.  its not like Joel makes it easy to track us.

"I was just without Internet for 10 days."

dear god, thats awful.
Permalink FullNameRequired 
January 31st, 2006 3:34pm
It's astounding reading through your posts. I make an observation about Joel's star fading, and you come out punching for Joel, claiming that it's all jealousy. Uh huh. And if I said that New Kids on the Block, which was unavoidably bombarded from every store and elevator, made shit music and their star was fading, that's all jealousy too.

And it isn't just a couple of comments on Reddit. It's the lack of positive comments, the relatively low score on the story, coupled with the fact that the last time one of Joel's articles was featured on Slashdot it was terrible panned by the majority of the readers (and they no longer appear). Contrast this with a couple of years earlier when the naysayer was a very odd man out.
Permalink Backbiter 
January 31st, 2006 3:34pm
"notice how his criticisms amounted to more than 'we dont like joel so clearly he sucks'?"

Yes because "star is fading" is clearly a critique of Joel's latest article, my lead-poisoned dingbat.
Permalink Backbiter 
January 31st, 2006 3:37pm
>>"I was just without Internet for 10 days."
>dear god, thats awful.

Not as awful as losing my passport in a GCC country.
Permalink Colm 
January 31st, 2006 3:40pm
"...and you come out punching for Joel, claiming that it's all jealousy..."

nah.  I was claiming that your post was a brilliant example of your ability to create empty, vacuous, inane random collections of words.


"Uh huh. And if I said that New Kids on the Block...<snip> that's all jealousy too. "

I wouldn't have a clue.  Who are they?

"And it isn't just a couple of comments on Reddit. It's the lack of positive comments, the relatively low score on the story,"

ahh.  right.  thats a cincher then. sorry, I thought you were basing your comments on absolutely nothing of importance whatsoever.
you should have *said* you were basing it on the lack of comments to his latest article on reddit.

"...coupled with the fact that the last time one of Joel's articles was featured on Slashdot it was terrible panned by the majority of the readers"

ah.  so its become trendy to put his work down now?  first it was trendy to praise it, now its trendy to put it down....soon all the people who follow trends will give up and focus on something else :)

In the meantime everyone else who is interested will just read Joels articles, think about them, and not start madly posting "OHHH JOEL sUCKZ" or "OHH JOEL RULz" after every article.


seriously.  its not just pointless. its *dull*.  talk about ideas.  not people.  people are dull.  ideas are *interesting*.

go on...start a post about an *idea* that *you* have had.  *that* would be interesting.
starting posts about how much you think <whoever> sucks is just empty man.  its pathetic.
Permalink FullNameRequired 
January 31st, 2006 3:45pm
"Not as awful as losing my passport in a GCC country."

GCC country? Im *assuming* you are not talking about the compiler?
Permalink FullNameRequired 
January 31st, 2006 3:47pm
Bible says...
Permalink Rick Tang 
January 31st, 2006 3:49pm
No, the gulf cooperation council. The UAE to be specific.
Permalink Colm 
January 31st, 2006 3:49pm
Yet strangely you've spent this entire thread telling me how dumb I am for daring to question your hero.

Really you need to print this thread out and study it, because your skillz need some work.
Permalink Backbiter 
January 31st, 2006 3:49pm
"Yes because "star is fading" is clearly a critique of Joel's latest article, my lead-poisoned dingbat."

sorry, no.  I thought Id made this point?  "star is fading and reddit proves it"  isn't any kind of critique at all.  its an empty vacuous statement with absolutely no interesting content whatsoever.

seriously.  its so utterly devoid of anything even remotely approaching actual, interesting critique that in a strange zen kind of way it almost becomes interesting again for its own sake.


Your post is *empty* dude.
Permalink FullNameRequired 
January 31st, 2006 3:51pm
"Yet strangely you've spent this entire thread telling me how dumb I am for daring to question your hero. "

no, you are still missing it.  you aren't dumb for 'questioning my hero'.
You haven't *questioned* anything.
You have simply made a single vacuous observation and used it to leap to an entirely arbitary conclusion.

There *is* no question in your OP.  there is nothing.  its empty.  totally void of any kind of insight whatsoever.

Its void dude.  null. nil. you could as well have posted 'the sky is blue therefore the sun is cold' and it would have had as much insight.
Permalink FullNameRequired 
January 31st, 2006 3:54pm
"No, the gulf cooperation council. The UAE to be specific."

huh.  sounds like an interesting story.  what happened?

maybe make a new thread for it :)  this one is dragging on a bit.
Permalink FullNameRequired 
January 31st, 2006 3:55pm
Are you drunk, or are you always this dumb? I'm not going to bother with your specific points because they're intolerably stupid.
Permalink Backbiter 
January 31st, 2006 4:05pm
"I'm not going to bother with your specific points because they're intolerably stupid."

I only made one point.  it was that you had nothing interesting to say.  you have just made that point for me again.  thanks.
Permalink FullNameRequired 
January 31st, 2006 4:18pm
Are you still in the UAE Colm? I've got a ticket to Dubai I must use up sometime in the next three or four months so perhaps we could arrange a JOS?ectopia/COT meet.
Permalink Send private email Stephen Jones 
January 31st, 2006 4:48pm
What happens with JOel is I believe quite common on the web.

You come across the site through an external link, read the article like it a lot, and then spend the next week or two reading the whole archive. A little like gorging yourself on a shop full of cheesecake in one session. Then you wait a monh or so and one new article comes out; now that article may be of the standard of the best articles in the archive, or of the standard of the worst, but either way you are getting your fix spread out very thinly compared to when you devoured the whole output.

And then there is the second factor. The archive might only cover a year or two of articles, but that year or two of articles was probably twenty-five years in the thinking. But the later articles are going only to be the result of the last month's thinking, and slowed-down thinking at that as we normally become less original with age.

Now this has nothing to do with fanboys or cults of the personality. An essayist cannot be responsible for the personality flaws of his readers.

Incidnetally, if you are looking for a hero to replace Joel in your iconograpy, try Artemy Lebedev http://www.artlebedev.com/mandership/
I've been going through the whole archive in the last few days and he is good. Flasher T of course knows him well, and has presumably read him in the original Russian.
Permalink Send private email Stephen Jones 
January 31st, 2006 4:59pm
>>> http://www.artlebedev.com/mandership/

That is a good site, thanks.

I remember seeing the Happy Days episode, but didn't remember it until the Jump the Shark website became famous a few years ago:

http://www.jumptheshark.com/

Stephen nailed it, but I also think the evolution of his site (including kicking ?Off out) is part of Joel's master plan.  He wants to build a bigger company and have it continue to be respected.  Getting rid of ?Off is part of keeping his site professional and respectable.  Posting bland articles as drafts and then re-hashing them is a good way to keep up interest.

I mean really, "Design" has been done to death lately...

http://www.massivechange.com/
Permalink Send private email Ward Bush 
January 31st, 2006 6:06pm
'Design of Everyday Things' is so overrrated, IMHO.

I can't even focus on what he is trying to say because in typical Joel fashion, he throws out some controversial statement before getting to his main point.

I read about 'Sweet Home Alabama' as a great song even though it's racist (a way, way, way overrated song), then Brad Pitt looks very good, but it's unclear if he can act (according to Joel).

Oh, and then something about how design affects him or whatever, I didn't read that part, how could I after the intro?
Permalink LinuxOrBust 
January 31st, 2006 6:41pm
>>> but it's unclear if he can act (according to Joel).

It's a nice strawman...  Presumably Joel has seen, or at least heard of, say, "Meet Joe Black" or "10 Years in Tibet."

Joel doesn't have a lot of substance to offer here, as I said in the other thread, Design's been talked about to death recently.
Permalink Send private email Ward Bush 
January 31st, 2006 6:53pm
One thing I like about Joel.  He seems to be living the software dream.  He has his own company and it not some super-google-style company.  It seems pretty fun.

I tend to take his blog as boring and a drunken release.  But, I like the Paul Graham's and Joel Spolsky.

They are grass-roots software development.
Permalink Send private email Bot Berlin 
January 31st, 2006 10:03pm
>Are you still in the UAE Colm? I've got a ticket to Dubai
>I must use up sometime in the next three or four months so
>perhaps we could arrange a JOS?ectopia/COT meet.

Got back on Monday. There is a chance that I could be back in the next three or four months though, assuming negotiations all go well. If so, definitely.
Permalink Colm 
February 1st, 2006 4:37am

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