No joke. He will require unpaid labor of every one as a precondition of receiving credentials needed to gain a job:

http://www.change.gov/americaserves/

Are you trying to be funny?

Slavery isn't defined as "working for no pay".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Definitions

It's being REQUIRED to work for no pay.

America Serves? That's right! America Serves Time!

Glad I already graduated.

Where's the Unemployed Corps?

http://www.centrelink.gov.au/internet/internet.nsf/services/work_dole.htm

I don't see community service as a bad thing. An hour a week for schoolkids picking up litter, a couple of hours a week helping Meals On Wheels, training with the State Emergency Service or pulling out noxious weeds for college kids (or superannuants) might reduce some waistlines.

This will be the first time in history that the federal government has dictated specific graduation requirements. Private, public, state, city, county schools - all now have to do what the feds decree, even if it is slavery. Plus colleges. Why shouldn't they be allowed to determine their own requirements? And who determines what sorts of community service is acceptable? A student wants to help his church dig a well in Africa - will that be allowed? How about the college student who works with the Hells Angels Toys for Tots Christmas program?

No Child Left Behind was just the start of lost control of schools.

"I don't see community service as a bad thing."

Did I say that? Where did I say that?

Sex is a good thing. But if I am forced into it, it is rape.

Because AmeriCorps was such a resounding success.

"Obama and Biden will set a goal that all middle and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year, and will establish a new tax credit that is worth $4,000 a year in exchange for 100 hours of public service a year."

sounds a lot better than forced non voluntary military service going on now a la stoploss

I didn't see anything on that page about it being voluntary OR it paying the $40 an hour that you are saying it does, but I will accept your claim that your taxes will be $4000 higher if you do not do the service.

A $4000 "tax credit for X" means that you pay $4000 in tax more if you don't do X. It's not a credit - it's a fine for disobedience.

Those who refuse to participate in the "required" hours, will be fined $4000.

Thanks for filling in the details.

>>
A $4000 "tax credit for X" means that you pay $4000 in tax more if you don't do X. It's not a credit - it's a fine for disobedience.

Now you are just being silly.

No, I'm telling it like it is.

Look, there's a $4000 difference in your tax bill depending on if you do your 100 hours of unpaid labor. That's a fine for not complying.

It is just like every other kinds of tax credits.

Which other tax credits require you to work as a slave for the government on their projects?

It gives you money if you work on the projects.

Make sense? :)

Of course I prefer he just give me 4000 credit, no string attached :)

But his is a fair proposal.

Well, you can't expect that much anyway. He is after all a socialist.

No, it doesn't give you money. You PAY $4000 more in income tax per year if you DON'T work on the projects.

Getting paid means the give you money you didn't have before.

Yikes.

Isn't this what China requires, to a lesser degree.

"But his is a fair proposal."

There will always be someone to defend slavery.

As an African black and not an American black he does not understand why slavery is bad, this is why he is promoting it.

On the other hand, most of the people who sold African blacks into slavery were blacks themselves, doing it for their own profit and agenda, so Obama is following a long tradition of black slave traders who sell out their own race. Much worse than an Uncle Tom.

Although noted, he is enslaving people of all colors equally, so although he is a slave trader, he is at least not a racist. At least we have that.

Also, it looks like this has to be done through the America Serves program, so you won't be able to do things like start a homeless shelter and get people jobs on your own, you have to sign up with one of their federal programs and do what the bureaucrat tells you - pick up litter on the side of the road, plant trees, distribute DNC flyers, whatever the central planning committee thinks is the best thing to do.

It's not for community service, it's for working for their specific programs.

But even if it was ok to volunteer at a church or private school or local community created garden, I am still opposed to non-voluntary work you are legally required to pay $40/hr out of your hard earned income to get out of.

Internalized slavery theories, eh?

"No, it doesn't give you money."

No, I never said it does. It gives me 'credit'.

Please. Do you think taxation is slavery? I can't discuss with people who think like that.

using the same logic as that utilised by consultant, taxation is in fact robbery or face the use of overwhelming force against us.

and, make no mistake, it *is*.

we are being forced to surrender our cash or suffer the consequences.

who here would pay the tax they do if they weren't being forced to?  anyone?

thank god consultant has the courage to say it like it is.

This is one of those times that I agree with Consultant.  WTF.

Wah. All conservatives come out of the closet tonight!

I agree making it compulsory, otherwise you can't graduate sucks a little bit, but so is making Algebra I mandatory requirement.

But given tax credits if you work for community service? I really don't see any problem with that.

Work need to be done, but can't be provided for profits. So, tax revenues are used to pay for it.

Big deal. Do you really expect Obama to lower your tax? He IS  a socialist.

I agree with rick.  at the end of the day, you get to choose which is most important to you...time or money.


what bites IMO is the time...50 hours a year?  barely one hour a week?  if you are going to do that you could quadruple that period without causing anyone any hardship.

Americans being press-ganged into community service schemes is an attack on freedom. 

Why not draft young adults into working as firemen or police officers or into processing Social Security disability claims?  Those are all socially worthwhile functions.  Why not shut down commercial and municipal garbage collection services and muster up work units of "volunteers" to do the job?

We put up with taxes as a necessary evil so that someone can be paid to undertake those tasks.

Though we still have to register for with the Selective Service in case anyone starts the draft back up again someday, even the damned military is run on a volunteer basis these days.

This is insanity.

It's like someone is intentionally laying the groundwork for the fascist youth groups to come.

Or to increase public sector labour for zero cost, and book the wages as tax relief.

It's an accounting fiddle.

i, like many americans, was required to do 40 hours of community service for their high school civics class.

no community service, no passing grade in civics class. no passing grade in civics, no high school diploma.

i was a slave. i demand reparations!!!11!one!1

like usual, consultant has his facts wrong and presents them in an incedinary, trollish manner. i am surprised he got so many of you whipped up in a fury.

the facts of the plan:

* Establish a goal of having middle and high-schoolers contribute at least 50 hours a year to community service, and reach that goal through national guidelines for service-learning and additional resources for schools to develop successful programs.

* Create a new American Opportunity Tax Credit to ensure that the first $4,000 of a college education is completely free for Americans willing to complete 100 hours of public service a year.

all of the actual details, not just consultant's foaming-at-the-mouth foolishness:

http://my.barackobama.com/page/-/HQpress/12.5.07_Fact%20Sheet%20National%20Service%20FINAL.pdf

via

http://www.barackobama.com/2007/12/05/obama_issues_call_to_serve_vow.php

Hey arg, you know what my SOURCE on the $4000 is? It's YOU. I even said I couldn't find it on his site but I would ACCEPT, on YOUR word that it was true.

What you said:

"Obama and Biden will set a goal that all middle and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year, AND will establish a new tax credit that is worth $4,000 a year in exchange for 100 hours of public service a year." - arg!

the link i provided above states that, and that you "couldn't find it" tells me you really didn't look for more details on the program before spouting off jibberish about slavery.

but thanks for your faith in me. very touching.

arg you fool, I said that I couldn't find it when you first posted yesterday with no link, not when you posted just now.

Hm, the actual link your quote comes from is here:

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/service/

It is "Obama and Biden will set a goal that all middle and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year, AND will establish a new tax credit that is worth $4,000 a year in exchange for 100 hours of public service a year."

The AND is just where you said it was - the $4000 applies to everyone, not just students.

Also, not on his http://www.change.gov/ site which is what we were talking about. If we are talking about site X and you provide a quote, it is assumed the quote comes from site X and not site Y.

"If we are talking about site X and you provide a quote, it is assumed the quote comes from site X and not site Y"

how about this: if you are going to make outlandish claims of policy Z, you should be at least somewhat knowledgeable about policy Z. This includes, but is certainly not limited to, reading more than a one paragraph summary on one web page.

the information is out there. do your homework.

What a cop-out, arg!

Fury? This is CoT, stupid!

arg, look at the quote:

It is "Obama and Biden will set a goal that all middle and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year, AND will establish a new tax credit that is worth $4,000 a year in exchange for 100 hours of public service a year."

What I have said still stands - I was relying on this quote that you provided, and we have now established that it really is the policy of Obama to implement this.

And you call that "slavery"?  50 hours of community service?

I think that's the trollish part of the issue.

Hey, your country began because of taxes!!!

Actually, some conservatives are quite scary...

Have you ever *done* any community service?  I *already* do 50 hours per year of community service (eh, maybe 45) through Big Brothers Big Sisters, without any incentives, and I always feel like I'm still not doing my part.  I do something with my little about once a month, and I really should do something twice a month.  It's the least anyone can do to contribute to their society.

I do a couple hundred hours a year and I regularly donate in excess of $50,000 per year to various charities.

I am doing enough already. This new plan, my choice is to work for federal government programs for free and THAT is being called "community service". I do not have the choice to do the service I want to, which I know for a fact is 20 times more effective than anything the wet dreams the government cooks up. Government "helping" programs tend to work to keep people DOWN, subjugated and subservient.

It's not just the 100 hours you'll have to do to avoid the $4000 "not helping" tax. You also have to drive to and from the "helping location", maintain paperwork, register for programs, agree to have all your efforts tracked, and so forth. And then, as you are "helping" by picking up garbage and digging roadside ditches to avoid the $40/hr fine, you'll also start to notice that the other helpers are standing around gossiping and getting "paid" the same "not fined" for not working, but hitting on the pretty girls, bitching about whatever. And you'll do the same as well to avoid going insane. Now you are spending 300 hrs (1 hr drive each way to the helping center twice a week to do 1 hr of helping) a year wasting your time, and you no longer have time to raise your kids, or volunteer for other things.

I understand your frustration against control of government of your life.

But ... it's just some tax credits. I mean, it's not really a big deal. I really doubt that they will discount your effort if you volunteer for a non-profit organization.

Do you know how tax credit work? It depends on your marginal tax rate. You are not taxed the whole $4000.

Consultant, you're still in middle-school, high-school, or college?

Actually, this might explain much.

So you're already PROVIDING the 'Slavery' Obama is calling for, but being told to do it "on purpose" pisses you off?

There's much wrong with your argument here.

That's exactly the issue :)

'Liberal' won't understand...

Liberal DO understand.  Liberal understand that Consultant is SUCH a maverick that being TOLD to do something good lowers that good in Consultant's eyes, EVEN IF that's what Consultant was going to do anyway.

Liberal understands this makes Consultant's values and actions depend on what OTHERS tell him to do, more than Consultant's own convictions.

Liberal understand this means Consultant willing to shoot self in foot to spite somebody else.  Liberal understand this attitude is quite common, but also self-defeating.

STH, there are three aspects of this proposal (outlined below) that trouble me.  Don't any of them concern you, even a little?

(1.) Making anything other than academic performance a requirement for obtaining a high school diploma is wrong-headed.  Once we veer down the path of adding non-academic hurdles to the process, where's it going to stop? 

What if abstinence, backed up in young women's cases by periodic hymen intactness checks, were made a graduation requirement?   

It sounds far-fetched but there are school districts where creationism is taught alongside or in place of evolution.


(2.) *Some* types of community service result in some sort of positive contribution being made to society.  Not all.

Tree planting is fairly non-controversial, but how about chaperoning women into abortion clinics and protecting them from pro-life demonstrators?  What about standing outside abortion clinics and trying to counsel young women into reconsidering their choice to terminate their pregnancies?

Who is going to determine which activities constitute acceptable public service?  What's the appeal process going to be?  Etc. etc.


(3.) Young people are being targeted *first* for this sort of thing because they seem like easy victims. 

Imagine senior citizens, eventually, being forced to perform "community service" or have benefits like property tax caps rescinded or even getting their Social Security benefits docked. Laid off and want to get your full unemployment benefits?  Go pick up trash along the side of the highway or join the municipal brush clearing gang.

those are pretty much all "slippery slope" arguments that are a bit absurd.

as i said before, community service was a requirement for graduation for me, and millions of other high school students via civics class.

so its *already being practiced*. today, and 10-20 years ago even, at *least*.

you're just lock, stock and barrel buying in to the absurd FUD spin consultant put on it.

(psst: he also believes the us government was behind 9/11, and there are concentration camps all over the country for the us military to put us all in.)

The upshot is instead not taxing you the government gives you  credit for doing something they want you to do.

That's a fact. FUD? Spin? It depends a lot on your perspectives.

arg!, I'm just over 30 and there was no express or even implied community service graduation requirement at my h.s. in the NJ burbs when I was there.

I spent my waking non-ass-in-classroom-chair hours during my h.s. years studying and working 20+ hours a week in a hardware store.  My family was poor as dirt and I *needed* that money.  I begged the owner for extra hours on weekends squeezing sealant into cracks in the asphalt in the parking lot.

Life was shitty enough and I was tired enough all the time without b.s. "community service" time being lumped onto me.

Dismissing legitimate concerns as hysterical slippery slope arguments is dumb when the slope is obviously getting pretty damned slippery.

"there was no express or even implied community service graduation requirement at my h.s."

again, this has been happening already. In 1999, 64% of schools offered community service, and 32% linked this community service to the curriculum in the form of service-learning (which is Obama's entire plan).

http://www.civicyouth.org/quick/civic_ed.htm

"I spent my waking non-ass-in-classroom-chair"

we were allowed to be excused from school early to fulfill my obligation a day or two if outside hours were not practical, which is what i believe the service will be- integrated in to the curriculum. as already noted in the links.

He didn't discount them as hysterical.  He discounted them as absurd.

Yes, I'm concerned, that mandating this stuff "in a bad fashion" could be a problem, and should be watched.  However, insisting that BECAUSE it might be a mandate at all makes it slavery is also absurd.

You're making the assumption that your existing service in NJ would not have counted -- which it might have.  And then you're making conclusions based on that assumption.  It does seem a little FUD overdone.

Integrating government-mandated community service into school hours is even worse.  That's classroom time or potential classroom time being eaten up by chain gang time.

Most schools (excepting larger urban or regional schools with paid, armed security guards) only have a single vice principal in charge of discipline but there would likely be multiple work gangs on assignment at any one time.

Trustees would have to be appointed.

I wonder whether students/wards be permitted to sing (or at least hum) while performing their service...

*****its already happening in a third of schools, including the one i went to*****

consultant's argument seems to be "obama wants to enslave me and my children and make me do hard labor."

when as more facts come out, it appears obama's plan is just implementing a very good program (in my own personal experience- i participated in it!) that is *already in place at a third* of the schools in america today to the rest of the schools.

and to give college students money for college, *if they so choose*, by them performing community service.

And yes, while they do it, they can probably hum or sing.

So, just to be clear, possibly probably and Consultant are both anti-social wankers who won't lift a finger to help somebody out?  That kind of what they sound like.

possibly probably, your arguments are frankly silly.  You're going out of your way to look for the most ridiculous extreme way of interpreting things.  Go blow Consultant, you two are obviously meant for each other.

Here in Michigan, we do have non-academic requirements for receiving your diploma.  At least one year of physical education is required, which is not exactly an academic subject.  And a year of non-academic subjects like art and wood shop are required in middle school.  I don't see how making community service part of the curriculum requirement is any worse than forcing them to play basketball or make a doorstop. 

School isn't just for reading in books.  Most states have a goal of trying to develop better citizens through their schools.  So it seems like having them go out and do something that makes them better citizens seems pretty reasonable.  Especially since the schools are paid for by the public.

Pidgin English? Nice ad hominem.

When I volunteer I direct my efforts so they improve things for people. I am not doing free labor for the rich, nor am I wasting my time with efforts that amount to nothing, nor do I have to take orders from cretins.

Obama's plan is about telling me what to do, and charging me a fine if I won't comply, and putting me in a prison if I won't pay the fine. It takes up enough time that I won't be able to do the cool things where I do make a difference.

It is exactly the same thing as the Soviet Gulag, or Nazi concentration work camps.

Work Shall Make You Free, people. Work Shall Make You Free.

Nah, the "pidgin english" was to Rick Tang, who's being naive again.

"and putting me in a prison if I won't pay the fine."

That's called tax. If you don't pay tax, you will go to prison.

Tax, not fine.

The government is saying to do this work we will give you money. It's an absolutely good deal, unless you don't have to pay tax, which means less money will be given to you.

Yes, it's your money. But at least you get it back, not given to other lazy guys on welfare...

"Obama's plan is about..."

quite frankly, you have shown with resounding effect to not have done a modicum of research on this policy plan.

for that reason alone (but not limited to that reason alone), you simply are not in a position to "break it down" for the rest of us here.

Clay, telling me to blow somebody?  Because we disagree on government/social policy?

You wouldn't say boo to me if we were sitting across a table from each other but you get all puffed up online and forget who and what you actually are.

I really hope that being an Internet potty mouth helps you cope with the disappointments staring you down in your day to day life.

I'm out of this thread.