Wow that guy loves himself.
Joel Pestered by VC's
Wow that guy loves himself.
huh? I had that for a while as well. its not a matter of loving yourself, its jsut that certain types of people have got *nothing* better to do than ring you at lunch time and offer you money.
its a dreadful, dreadful thing.
He has no reason to bring it up, in a forum full of people who'd love to get VC investment.
"Not only do I get calls on a regular basis, I don't even want them. I play the game better than you ever will, and I don't even want to play."
Jealous? No. Amused yes.
Sorry, if my post seemed evil/negative. I just found it funny that Joel felt a need to post a message saying, "Oh gosh, what am I going to do about all of these investors who keep trying to give me some money! Oh they almost make it difficult to be as great as I am."
See, no negativity. :-)
in a forum about running a business? it seems totally ontopic to me.
Joel's advice is to stay away from VC's and it always has been... I'm not sure he's doing much bragging. VC's seem to invest randomly and Fogcreek is almost a safe bet.
actually, I dont agree at all @ safe bet. I doubt FogCreek will ever make the kind of dollars that VC are hoping for.
Its just just a few basic products and a charismatic owner with lots of writing talent....it will be (I suspect) a perfectly successful software company, but it is unlikely to ever skyrocket the way that VC investors are hoping for/expecting.
AHA - I'll _almost_ give you that. But this doesn't even fit into the don't-accept-vc-cash advice category. He barely says he's not (terribly) interested.
"Whatever Apu. You're trolling and you know it."
wow. way to shut down alternate opinions.
For the record:
(1) It was *clearly* an ontopic post for a business forum and
(2) I am NOT trolling.
"wow. way to shut down alternate opinions."
la la la la I'm not listening.
Oh, what were you saying?
"I doubt FogCreek will ever make the kind of dollars that VC are hoping for."
VC's invest in fucking screen saver companies -- Fogcreek is a safe bet in comparison to that. VC's think with a bunch of cash, a small company will grow big and they'll get their return on investment. It's probably that they are looking at Joel in particular and not necessarily Fogcreek.
But Joel does sound vaguely interested...
"See, no negativity. :-)"
There is no hate. I just don't want my children around VCs.
sorry jigger, were you looking for intelligent conversation or a bitch fest?
Im perfectly willing to offer either, but you *appeared* to be claiming that your motivation for posting this thread was the former and not the later (despite the obvious tone of the OP)
If thats so maybe you should get over the bitching and let the conversation continue?
"VC's invest in fucking screen saver companies -- "
"Fogcreek is a safe bet in comparison to that."
only insofar as it wont actually go broke in the near future.
" It's probably that they are looking at Joel in particular and not necessarily Fogcreek. "
yeah, very likely.
"But Joel does sound vaguely interested..."
<shrug> who wouldn't? anyone who doesn't at least consider things like that is doing themselves and their company a misservice.
"There is no hate. I just don't want my children around VCs."
That's not what I said ...
Glad you enjoyed my post all, this is probably a better forum for my other problems... in addition to being hounded by VC's, I also can't walk straight because my dick is so large, and everywhere I got hot women strip naked and try to give me felacio, and this is a big problem because I don't even like women! Plus the leather on my Mercedes S600 might be giving me a rash. Oh and some idiot in Hawaii wants to pay me $1 mil for an hour of my time to go there and speak....god if only I could find a good ajax calendar for my busy, impressive schedule.
February 9th, 2006 7:12pm
I don't know how I could make my intentions for this thread clearer than I did in my second post: It's something I found funny.
I _never_ said it was off topic. I _did_ say I thought it was funny that Joel had to post as he did. It's clearly self congratulatory. Here, I'll even join Joel in congratulating Joel: Congratulations, Joel, on being Joel! Hooray!
You disagree with me that he this particular post is self congratulatory, fine. (I still think you trolled it up a little.)
And lastly, you seem to be the whiner here, but maybe cause I read my own threads with the intended whimsy.
the thing I cannot understand is if you dislike the guy so much, why do you keep reading his stuff?
I mean, *fine*, you think hes a bigheaded, boasting twat with no writing skill.
I get it.
so why do you hang out on his forum? and given that you do, why do you read his posts?
what is your obsession with hating Joel? whats the *point*?
well *duh* colm.
I *understand* that Im arguing with trolls.
Im *ok* with that because I have *nothing* better to do.
trying to get a troll to admit to their stupidity is, frankly, a challenge that I am up for.
would you like to make any other blindingly obvious observations? or can I get on with it?
I was going to post what I thought about Joel's latest blog posting:
It seemed pretty much right on track. I've disagreed with a few things that Joel has said and I agree with other things. Most people are not simple one-dimensional lovers or haters of Joel.
I've never claimed that I hate Joel, or even dislike him really (although I definitely understand how that can be inferred from this topic). I don't happen to think he is the genius that he is made out to be, but that is to his credit. His public persona is just that, and he likely even amuses himself while he propogates it.
I once in a while check the forums, especially BOS, because there are things being discussed there that I find interesting/beneficial to me. If it's okay with you, I'm going to continue reading it once in a while. Don't worry, I almost _never_ bring anything up back here on COT, and I'll continue that tradition...
What's with the troll/hating Joel/jealousy nonsense? I pretty much agree with BigJiggers, which is that it is a very odd sort of post, reminding me a bit of the desperate-for-attention teen girls who would complain as loudly as possible about having too many guys who like them.
If anything, this forum is bringing out some rose-coloured glasses Joel lovers.
As an aside - All of Joel's writings about VCs sound completely disingenuous to me. I feel fairly sure that he is DYING for some VCs to come his way, and everytime they don't, or a deal gets flushed, he writes some additional spiteful diatribe about the evils of VCs.
>I *understand* that Im arguing with trolls.
You're doing it all wrong.
"If anything, this forum is bringing out some rose-coloured glasses Joel lovers."
LOL. yeah. thats me. filled with love and tenderness toward joel. the perfect man. yeah baby.
"I feel fairly sure that he is DYING for some VCs to come his way, and everytime they don't, or a deal gets flushed, he writes some additional spiteful diatribe about the evils of VCs."
"You're doing it all wrong."
goddamn it colm, what is it this time?
It better not be a criticism about my grammar this time or I swear Ill go sathyaish on your ass.
Come on, admit it. You do love him. Seeing any observation as a jealous attack on your admired Joel is a pretty clear sign.
BigJiggers made a fair observation, and given that Joel is a "personality", he has every right to make it (Robert Scoble is a know-nothing douche. Oh no, does that make me jealous of him?).
And yeah, it is obvious to anyone not in love with Joel that his VC tirades come from somewhere deeper than sober analysis. Sorta like how Joel constantly talked about how great Microsoft is, and how much of a sterling example they are...until he got wind of Team Foundations that could devastate FogBugz. Suddenly Joel became Mr. AntiMicrosoft, and the Joel lovers were soaking it up.
Colm was it you that provided that link about Rick Tang = 'Lamer'? That was great. Do some others. :-)
So you're either a joel lover or a joel hater, there is no in between. Evaulating a statement at face value is not permitted in your world, ,...........,?
Uh, apparently that's YOUR world Heathers. Why don't you look at how you responded to Jiggers observation.
Heathers: what is the face value of Joel's post? Why would he post it? He didn't even take the time to say, "Beware of VC's, don't let them take you off gaurd," which would have actually been something to post.
Maybe he was just amused by his transome joke and wanted to share it, nothing more. I guess that could be it. :/
"Come on, admit it. You do love him."
oh, ok. I admit it. I love him. he makes my toes curl. he really rocks my world.
"Seeing any observation as a jealous attack on your admired Joel is a pretty clear sign. "
actually I didn't say anything about the OP being a jealous attack. that was said by others.
In fact if you scan the thread just quickly I think you'll find that I haven't used or implied anything of the sort.
...that *does* depend on your reading comprehension of course...
"BigJiggers made a fair observation, "
??? he said: "Wow that guy loves himself."
Im not sure what your standards are but thats not a 'fair observation' where I come from. its a pointless, undirected, non-technical whinge.
I mean come on, its hardly an indepth criticism of anything, is it?
"and given that Joel is a "personality", he has every right to make it"
oh? you think its interesting to make pointless, boring observations about people just because they are 'personalities'?
oddly enough, I *still* find pointless comments like that boring regardless of how famous the person is.
"(Robert Scoble is a know-nothing douche. Oh no, does that make me jealous of him?). "
quite possibly. I dont know. are you?
"And yeah, it is obvious to anyone not in love with Joel that his VC tirades come from somewhere deeper than sober analysis."
unlike BigJiggers deeply thought out analysis?
"Suddenly Joel became Mr. AntiMicrosoft,"
yeah, amazing that. him changing his mind after they did something he didn't like. just incredible.
Im sorry, I dont understand, why are you talking about Joels opinion on microsoft?
"I'll bet that you don't have my phone number :)"
heh. I bet I could find it :)
"Maybe he was just amused by his transome joke and wanted to share it, nothing more. I guess that could be it."
yeah, that was my first thought as well.
"Im sorry, I dont understand, why are you talking about Joels opinion on microsoft?"
It demonstrates how Joel pushes an agenda, and how people who naively soak it up as the wisdom of intelligent analysis are fools. Joel has mentioned VCs a few too many times, going out of his way to mention them. In this case if you read behind the lines his real beef seems to be that VCs don't take him seriously enough, and that was his way of saying "I want the limo treatment".
And I can't imagine real VCs would have any interest in FogCreek at all. VCs are interested in potential, and FogCreek has very limited potential (oh noes...I'm jealous!)
"It demonstrates how Joel pushes an agenda,"
?? well, duh. of course he does. hes a business man trying to sell his software.
"and how people who naively soak it up as the wisdom of intelligent analysis are fools."
uhh...anyone taking anything any blogger else writes as the entire truth is a fool.
why are you singling out Joel here?
"Joel has mentioned VCs a few too many times, going out of his way to mention them."
ah. right. after all, its not like VC is a big deal in the states, is it.
"In this case if you read behind the lines his real beef seems to be that VCs don't take him seriously enough, and that was his way of saying "I want the limo treatment"."
well, thats pretty much exactly what he said wasn't it? I mean, his words were:
"It's also a little insulting because they do no research on me or my company and then get a 22 year old summer student from Wharton to call me up."
so, what did you think you were adding to his post? he *specifically said* he found it a little insulting the way they were approaching him.
so what exactly are you saying that he didn't already say very explicitly?
"And I can't imagine real VCs would have any interest in FogCreek at all. VCs are interested in potential, and FogCreek has very limited potential (oh noes...I'm jealous!)"
umm..thats exactly what I said further up (check the post). FogCreek doesn't feel like a good investment for a VC who is hoping for a massive win...its a good, solid software company but AFAICS its future is just in slowly adding more products....which is fair enough, but boring from a VC POV.
so given that I said that first, and you just copied me...clearly *im* the jealous one and *you* are the joel lover.
oh! maybe you are jealous of *me* and thats why you plagiarised my post?
or wait! maybe you love *bigjigger* and *he* loves joel and so *you* are jealous of his infatuation with joel, whilst *he* is unaware of your love but desperate to get joels attention.
that would explain *perfectly* why you are so dead bent on *defending* bigjigger against accusations of jealousy, because you love him yourself and *hate* the idea that he might really like joel.
while bigjigger is driven to distraction by his love, finally in desperation posting to ?CoT in anger at the way its been ignored by Joel.
hmm...except Im not sure where heather fits into all this.
maybe she really loves you, and has heretofore been unaware that you are gay?
If Joel wasn't such an ego maniac, he wouldn't be nearly as successful as he is now. Personally, I think he's entertaining, but he has the feel of an entrepreneurial
middle-manager. Alot of talk and not much else. It wouldn't surprise me if he didn't know how to open up a text-editor.
February 9th, 2006 8:29pm
We need a sidebar link to a standard description of Joel so we can skip all these endless discussions about him:
He writes well.
As Stephen Jones (I think) pointed out: on a site like Joel's, the first bunch or articles are based on years and years of thought and experience, and then just when the guy gets noticed he has to write equally insightful articles but with only a little bit more thought and experience, so they're inevitably weaker.
His web site and forums are about marketing his company.
He shut down ?Off with a lame excuse because he realized we were a liability to marketing his company.
At least part, and often a big part, of his goal in writing articles now is marketing. Maybe he wants to say "We're so good, we turn down VCs," maybe he just wants to be funny by using the word "transom."
If *I* wanted to attract VC's, I might be tempted to write about how I was turning so many away... [g]
OMG, I wish women would stop begging to ride my 9" cock. If only they would quit saying "I'll give you a BJ", or "I'll give you some tit strokes". I want full on bare-back.
February 10th, 2006 2:54am
I see Philo's jibe about the recruitment process being elitist still stings enough that its referred to twice.
Methinks she doth protest too much.
February 10th, 2006 3:05am
I think Joel was also a little irritated by...
...which sat atop Reddit for about two days (clearly there was a lot of agreement out there).
Reading Joel's explanation of why he needs the best of the best isn't quite convincing. It's like that sort of laughable "pointer example" Michael pulled out when Philo questioned them on it -- they do something marginally complex, and think that they're inventing something amazing and revolutionary...yet it's the sort of crud that every normal, everyday developer is doing day after day...they just aren't isolated into thinking that it's special.
February 10th, 2006 3:52am
well..the point of the pointer example wasn't that it was particularly complex, it was just that they *do* use pointers.
Interestingly enough it was an attempt to deflect another of philos criticisms IIRC.
Im really not understanding how you *do* go from 400 applicants down to 6 without being elitist in *some* way.
*why* does everyone care so much? Im missing some piece of the puzzle.
Abu al-Qasim Muhammad H Ibn Abd Allah Ibn Abd al-Muttalib,
I think people care because Joel tries to make them care. Joel had no need to write (yet another) entry about how exclusive FogCreek's hiring practices are (as an aside - I did hiring for a tiny engineering firm, 200 miles from the nearest major center. We got _THOUSANDS_ of resumes for every position, including internships), yet he did. Therefore people discuss it, as people are prone to do regarding this sort of thing.
I don't buy that the pointer example was simply an example, because it was a terrible example if it was (I think it was pretty dubious to even call it a pointer example). I think it was truly perceived to be something clever, even though it really was duplicating built-in functionality of ASP.
February 10th, 2006 4:03am
"I think people care because Joel tries to make them care."
maybe thats what I dont get. I read Joel. I enjoy his writing. sometimes I agree with him, sometimes I dont. but I dont *care* about him, or whether he is elitist, good programmer, whatever.
He just writes down his ideas, some are good (IMO), some are bad (IMO), some I just dont bother about one way or the other.
But ideas are *always* good to read about...and (especially when its just some guy blogging) mostly its not worth actually getting upset about one way or the other...take on board those you chose, ignore the rest.
"We got _THOUSANDS_ of resumes for every position, including internships),"
<g> and I bet you were elitist in some way in order to chose between them.
"Therefore people discuss it, as people are prone to do regarding this sort of thing. "
discuss, sure. I dont understand the schadenfreud(sp?) that I sense from many of these posts when they say '*Joel* is wrong, *Joel* sucks"
"I don't buy that the pointer example was simply an example, because it was a terrible example if it was"
heh. <shrug> I doubt anyone there put much thought into the example, I bet they just grabbed the first thing vaguely pointer like and used that.
"I think it was truly perceived to be something clever,"
*why* do you think that? ther ewas nothing in that post to make me think they thought much about it at all. it was just a call.
"even though it really was duplicating built-in functionality of ASP."
assuming you know exactly what they were doing with it.
That quote rebuttal couplet stuff is soooooooo tedious.
February 10th, 2006 4:29am
whinging about the quote rebuttal stuff is soooooooo tedious.
heh. wasn't that Joels point originally Simon? I never picked you as the fanboi type.
There's lots of things that Joel has been right about, that his average has dipped below the line lately is probably temporary. One can always hope.
February 10th, 2006 4:35am
If I described our hiring practice it would in no way mirror Joel's, and it would be a stretch to call it elitist. Ours was a very pragmatic "let's find people that will fit in the roles that we have for them.". We weren't saying "let's pick the best of the best", holding it up as a model for the industry.
As far as Joel caring, I've seen you debating this point quite a few times and I really don't get your position.
A says B.
C says A is a dumbass for saying B.
D (you are D) says "Why do you care what A says?"
...rinse and repeat...
You're as much a part of the cycle as anyone, and instead of withdrawing from conversations once they get into boring Joel-chat, instead you engage yourself to seemingly try to stop the conversation. Why? What's the point? Move on and let the bores bore each other to death.
February 10th, 2006 4:36am
"If I described our hiring practice it would in no way mirror Joel's,"
heh. Im sure it would not. mine certainly doesn't. Im a great fan of the 'hire the first person who doesn't actually insult me during the interview' approach.
...but then I hate hiring people and would rather pay $150000 over 3 years to fire them again than I would spend an extra 2 hours trying to get it right in the first place...
"let's find people that will fit in the roles that we have for them."
yeah, so that just means you were hiring a different elite.
hring someone is inherently elitist.
"Why? What's the point? Move on and let the bores bore each other to death."
heh. if I started thinking like that Id never post here again.
but *why* is everyone so pleased when they think Joel is wrong, or has made a mistake, or when they have reason to think he might not be an uber programmer?
We have had a surfeit of posts in ?CoT, including this one, that essentially insist of people (the same person?) saying "I Dont Like Joel".
and they are *boring*.
We *also* have a surprising number of people on here who appear to take great satisfaction in disagreeing with Joel, AFAICT just for the sake of doing it. not because they want to discuss the idea, just because they want to say "ha HA. Joel Got It Wrong"
and these posts aren't boring. they are just...odd...I think its the level of self-satisfaction emitted by the posters like they think they are proving something good about themselves, instead of just dissing some blogger.
Im not including those posts where his ideas are discussed in detail and disagreed with for the many and varied *good* reasons they can be disagreed with, Im talking about those posts where they dont so much discuss as diss without offering alternate ideas.
They sound like children putting their parents down to their friends, no real discussion just an innate sense of something owed somehow.
Hay, Abu, the wonderful thing about this place is that you _youi_ get to choose what _you_ read, so if you think something is boring then just don't read it. I happen to have found it rather amusing.
February 10th, 2006 6:21am
I think Joel's main point about VCs is that they take up so much of your equity that you don't have enough to deal out in incentives when your company does expand. Moreover they want you to expand to their time scheme, and as they are going to be losing 90% of their investments they need the successful 10% to be wildly successful to compensate. So a small ISV that grows steadily is of no interest to them, though it might be exactly what you want for your company.
And of course Joel doesn't need VC capital. How much money do you think he got as equity in MS?
"but *why* is everyone so pleased when they think Joel is wrong, or has made a mistake, or when they have reason to think he might not be an uber programmer?"
Quoth the Green Goblin:
"Well, to each his own. I chose my path, you chose the way of the hero. And they found you amusing for a while, the people of this city. But the one thing they love more than a hero is to see a hero fail, fall, die trying. In spite of everything you've done for them, eventually they will hate you. Why bother?"
People *love* to tear down an icon - it makes them feel better about themselves. (yes, I've been guilty about this with Google)
To be fair, people also love to LOVE an icon. To hold as uncontestable every utterance of their icon, and to defend them passionately wherever they go.
and either approach seems utterly pointless to me.
people who do either of those things are behaving like children, not like adults.
its entirely childish to place some poor chap on a pedestal....its also entirely childish to place him on one entirely for the sake of pushing him off.
meh. its so hard to find adult company these days.